HDxLiberation: A Human Design Podcast

S2, Ep. 4: Reclaiming Connection in the Digital Age with special guest, Shannon Algeo

• Courtney Napier, Andrea Ward Berg, Shannon Algeo • Season 2 • Episode 4

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In this episode of the Human Design and Liberation podcast, hosts Andrea and Courtney welcome psychotherapist and meditation teacher Shannon. They engage in an insightful discussion on how human design and liberation theology intersect, delving deep into the impact of technology on our human experience. Shannon shares his journey with smartphone attachment, the balance of using technology without losing oneself, and how creating space for mindfulness and authenticity is pivotal in the liberation journey. This episode also includes a reading of Shannon's profound poem, 'Reaching for the Phone I Left at Home on Purpose.' Tune in for a rich conversation about reclaiming our time, being in right relationship with technology, and exploring the profound connection between human design and liberation.

Resources:

 Kate Shela, movement maestra and founder of The 360 Emergence, “Go get yourself!”

Psychologist, Philip Flores and his book, Addiction as an Attachment Disorder

 Nikki Myers, founder of Yoga and the 12 Step Recovery, says, “Addiction is the disease of the lost self.”

Sherry Turkle, psychologist, founding director of the MIT Initiative of Technology and Self, and author of Alone Together 

Contact and Support:

For more insights and to join the conversation, follow the HDxLiberation podcast on social media at @hdxliberation on Instagram, subscribe to their YouTube channel, and join the Liberation Lab on Substack for exclusive content and community benefits.

Andrea:

Hi, I'm Andrea.

Courtney:

Hey y'all, this is Courtney and welcome to the Human Design and Liberation podcast.

Andrea:

This is a space where we explore how human design and liberation theology intersect with the past, present, and future.

Courtney:

With the intent of sharing the beauty and pain of the human experience to encourage you in your liberation journey.

Andrea:

Yay! We're here!

Courtney:

Hello! Hello! Woohoo!

Andrea:

Welcome, Shannon!

Shannon:

Thank you so much. Oh my gosh. Courtney and Andrea, the moment has arrived. We've been missing is the works. Yeah.

Andrea:

been trying to plan this for so many months. Like, so many months. My goodness. Ah! Um Okay, before we get into our regularly planned, uh I'm being facetious. Never planned.

Shannon:

Our previously scheduled content

Andrea:

Our previously scheduled content. Um, I just want to introduce you, Shannon. Um, so Shannon and I have been friends since, did we decide 2015?

Shannon:

Yeah. Yeah, that, that was when

Andrea:

The fall of 2015. So, um, I in New York for, uh, some client work with Jennifer Brown. Um, and Katie Dale bout was having a book launch and Shannon was there for it. Um, and that's where we met. We literally like bumped into each other we started talking and I think I introduced you to Jennifer cause I was like, you need to meet Jennifer. yeah, that's wild.

Shannon:

Yes. Yeah, I remember outside in downtown New York city. I feel like that venue was like, uh, like a bookstore or a library or a restaurant,

Andrea:

I think it was a restaurant

Shannon:

a buffet

Courtney:

Library, restaurant, you know,

Shannon:

had something like that.

Andrea:

It did. It was a restaurant. It had a booky vibe.

Courtney:

Cool.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Courtney:

I would go a library restaurant, just sayin

Andrea:

it was cool. Um, so this was BHD for me before human design.

Shannon:

BHD! Itwas before so much 2015 was before so much.

Andrea:

It was before ryan. It was before kids. It was before

Courtney:

Wow.

Andrea:

Before all the things. Yeah. For me. And know. For you

Shannon:

Before I I moved. Yeah, before I moved to LA. Yeah.

Courtney:

Oh,

Andrea:

So I just wanna, um, read the people your bio. Um, so Shannon is a psychotherapist, public speaker, author of Trust Your Truth and Meditation Teacher. We actually met through the meditation slash podcast is known by millions of people around the world for sharing his life experiences and ways. I mean, is that not third line sharing his life experiences? I mean, your bio is so third line, um, sharing his life. it's so awesome. It, it's the best, all,

Courtney:

we love a third line

Andrea:

We have, we'll always have a third of us that is a third line. So you're in good company. Um, okay. So he's known by millions of people around the world for sharing his life experiences and ways that land in the hearts, minds, and bodies of individuals who are seeking to learn, grow, and deepen. And heal his popular podcast, soul feed featured interviews with iconic cultural and spiritual leaders like Deepak Chopra, Mary Williamson, Sonya Renee Taylor, the first Ugandan Nobel Peace prize nominee, Victor Ochen, the first deaf blind person to graduate from Harvard law school, Haben Kerma, and more. As a therapist, Shannon works with clients to heal patterns of trauma so they can show up in the world with power, presence, and purpose. Um, I just love, I love that because it's just little like glimpse into your three five magic um

Shannon:

Hmm. yes. As you're reading, as you're, as you're reading the names of those interviews, I was like getting transported back to those. Those moments, like Victor, Victor Ochin, when, when when my podcast hosts and I interviewed Victor Ochin, the first Uganda Nobel peace prize nominee, he was in Uganda and it was night for us. And we could hear like the roosters on farm in the morning and we were like,

Courtney:

wow,

Shannon:

of the world. It was like, yeah, very powerful conversation. Yeah. And that was like, during like Skype, like Zoom

Andrea:

Yeah.

Shannon:

It wasn't a thing, like people weren't zooming, people weren't really working on the line in that kind of way that happened during the pandemic. So I remember like doing an interview, a video interview to Uganda felt like such a, I I mean,

Courtney:

it felt like the future.

Shannon:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney:

Like Pluto's an Aquarius now and so it's like it feels very prescient for you to have this reflection of like new technology and the ways that it impacted you then because we're all in this space now, like growing sensitivity towards technology and, um, kind of like the unveiling of what's like behind all this technology that we're using every day and all of that and Andrew actually told me that you have a lot of insight when it comes to like Using technology. You've done some like, I don't know if you would call them fast or experiments or breaks from things. And we'd love to hear little bit how that impacted you.

Andrea:

for those listening is Shannon's eyebrows just went up to his hairline. He's like, yes, actually experiments. Tell us, Shannon.

Shannon:

Yes, yes. I, um, I, you know, I think back to when I was working on my book proposal for Trust Your Truth. I was working on a proposal. I, I was sort of doing this like artist residency. I, I had the opportunity to stay. I mean, it wasn't quite a residency, but I, it was a, an artist housing situation in Hudson, New York, where there were like four artists. And we each got this one beautiful one bedroom apartment in this old building. Um, and right in the town of the city of Hudson, which is like two hours North of New York city, for those who know, right on the river, cute town. Um, and. I, so I was, we each got a week, each artist got a full seven days, um, in this, in this setup container, this sweet one bedroom apartment. And I was like, I need to, I need to write, I need to get into my writing process. I need to get out of LA. I need to get out of the city. I need to go to Hudson. I need to go where no one knows me. I need to, I like, you know, I need, need, need, need, need, like, what are the conditions that I need to access the creativity that I feel wants to come through. And what I realized after I made all these tweaks to my life and got across the country to Hudson from LA and, and landed in the apartment and it was time to write, um, I realized I couldn't stop checking my phone. That I was down to write, and I kept getting distracted by the, the sort of short term dopamine fixes of, Did someone text me back? Did I get an email about this? Did, you know, did I get more likes my Instagram feed? Who watched my story? You know, did someone message me here? Did someone message me there? And I, I realized that I could go, I mean, I could go anywhere in the world, but if there was Wi Fi, I was

Courtney:

yes.

Shannon:

F-U-C-K-E-D, like, like,

Courtney:

yes. Wow.

Shannon:

And so I was like, there's something deeper here. I, I'm going to have to do something bigger than putting my body in this town where I don't know anyone across the country. I'm going to like, there, there's some more insidious, there's something more disruptive to creative process than anything in the physical culture, and so I, I started to, I started to say, okay, I am going to turn my phone off on Saturday night, and I'm not going to turn it back on till Monday morning. So about 36 hours, two nights sleep, one full long day on a Sunday. And I remember it was such a huge deal. Like, like my psychology, my own personal mental health had been so impacted by my relationship to social media that I like actually felt accountable to my followers that I needed to like tell them where I was going at the time. I don't really feel that way now, but at the time I was like, uh I need to let people know where I am am because I'm not going to have a story up for 24 hours. As this comes out of my mouth. I'm like, this is sick.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Shannon:

This this is, this is dis ease

Andrea:

Yeah.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Shannon:

and yet it's so normalized.

Courtney:

Um, it's like the common cold that we're all dealing with on a psychic mental level. It's like just, yeah,

Andrea:

Hmm. Hmm.

Courtney:

it's everywhere, but so disruptive and it's so, it's so like destabilizing.

Shannon:

yeah. And like, and I, you know, I, I can go into so many examples of how social media and the internet has like served my sense of self of purpose and It's, you know, so I'm always, you know, careful. It's like, how do we highlight the problematic, um, underlying, psyche influencing aspects of technology without, like, completely Taking it from the perspective of like, this is bad.

Courtney:

Yeah. Like demonizing or that binary, like, Oh, that's such a fifth line. Like the fifth line is popping out now. I love it. The universal truth. Like how can we get like the, the thing that everybody needs to know about this in a practical way that's like applicable, we can live this life of like right relationship with something. like that's really what it's about, right?

Shannon:

Absolutely. And, and just to like, just to take the story of Hudson, just one step further that Sunday without my phone. And I did this multiple times and I've done it recently. I did it recently in Laurel Canyon. I was house sitting for a friend. Um, and I. That Sunday was psychedelic, and what I mean by that is, I was dropping into a, I didn't know this at the time, because I didn't know about the third line, but I was dropping into a third line experiential realization that life is different, the world is different, my eyeballs take in things differently, I'm having a, a, a different embodied experience. There's a, there's another dimension available in the de-layering from technology. I mean, literally hour by hour, like 9:00 AM 10:00 AM 11:00 AM by three 3:00 PM I am high on life. I am getting dopamine from like chipped paint in a yellow house, and the scaffolding like, like the level.

Courtney:

I love it so much.

Shannon:

That lands because I'm able to be present to something that's in the, the actual physical plane. Um, it just highlighted for me how much, like, checking my phone throughout all of these little tiny moments of my day

Courtney:

Mm.

Shannon:

impact the way I show up in the world.

video1817507727:

and experience

Shannon:

the life around me.

Courtney:

Mm.

Andrea:

Wow.

Courtney:

Love that. Love that. Chapter one.

Andrea:

Mm, Chapter one!

Shannon:

Thank you,.yeah,

Andrea:

Shannon. It was our conversation earlier this summer that I think led to my whole reorientation that I went through in July. Um,

Shannon:

you did no

Andrea:

Literally.

Shannon:

social media in July, is that right, Andrea? Like

Andrea:

Well, actually it wasn't even that. Um, I deleted the apps from my phone. the apps from my phone. was the first step. It was, it kind of came in on the solstice. Um, but it was coming in before that. Like I noticed the not self when I would be on social media, I noticed feeling bitter. I was feeling really bitter because I'm a projector. So it was like coming up for me and

Shannon:

mm

Andrea:

I want to say it was

Shannon:

The the not self,

Andrea:

the not self. Yes.

Shannon:

opposite of self energy.

Andrea:

Yes. Yeah. So true self for me is success or recognition, which is really, um, the feeling that my energy has shifted someone towards their true self.

Shannon:

Mm

Andrea:

whatever I'm putting my energy in is creating more satisfaction, more success, more peace for those around me. That's really projectors are the only type that has a signature that's related to what happens with other people. Um, that's just kind of like embedded in, in our, in our design, um, bitterness is often when you're not being seen, um, like people aren't taking your advice, like the energy that you're investing is not creating, um, a beneficial outcome. Um, and so I started to get curious about that bitterness and, um, one of the things that I realized is that my people don't really find me on social media per se, like most people that work with me, uh, find me through other means. And so that was kind of like a big. Permission slip. Um, then, yeah, like there's no recognition. I think that was the other piece is like, I don't feel recognized on social media, which is fine because I feel very recognized in real life, you know? Um, so that was when I think the invitation to just delete the apps came in end of June is when that happened, where I was like, I'm just going to delete the apps. And then, um, I still would like, I wasn't, I, I don't know. In the past, I've like tried to be completely off, like the whole fasting thing, um, but to really do anything, like I still kind of would feel that like compulsive energy, it was just kind of like restraining it. And so then it would build up and then, you know, go right back to whatever I was doing before. So this time I was like, Hmm, what if I'm not going to put a time limit on this, but what if I let myself get on through the browser and just, you know, I want to be in touch with people. If somebody DMs me, I want to be able to answer like some people only communicate. Like I have clients that mostly communicate through Instagram for whatever reason, it's where they are, you know? so. I let myself just, you know, open it in Chrome or whatever, but the, I think the X factor for me was, um, realizing that I was spending, like, I took screenshots because I wanted to like, remember I was spending like upwards of 15 hours a week on Instagram. Maybe more. Um, it was like, 15 to 17 hours or something like that. And with no recognition, right? Like knowing that I'm not getting recognition on there. Like, what the fuck am I doing? On platform. I'm where not getting recognition for that much time. Like that makes right? Like just logically, it doesn't make sense. Um, so I, I started to approach it as like a reorientation, like, okay, I'm orienting to this platform as if. I'm recognized here, like I'm spending a lot of my energy on here and I'm not getting recognized here and I'm feeling bitter. So what, how can I reorient the way that I'm engaging with this platform? And a lot of it is like what you're talking about. It's like the behavioral changes. It's the neural neural pathways that have been built up over many years through a platform that is designed to be addictive. So, um, the first thing to do was to remove the apps because I wouldn't even notice, like, you know, I would go into my phone and it's like, you, you pull this little, and it's already there. It's right there. You just pull that thing down and it's right there. I had to get rid of that. That had to go. Um, and then

Shannon:

I love that you did this. I'm sorry to interrupt. I love that you did this in the, around the solstice, which is like the most light of the year and like the visibility being seen. I like, I had, it was aligned.

Andrea:

Yeah

Shannon:

that there was something highlighted about the, like not being seen through this platform

Andrea:

Yes.

Shannon:

And occurring with

Andrea:

Yeah.

Shannon:

the the Bialtana is how you say an Irish or Beltane or the the solstice.

Andrea:

Beltane. It It was very much related to that. And I think the energy of like, don't, don't spend your energy on, you know, cause the, the light is our energy. Like the sun is what gives us energy. And so we have these longer days, like. Be in the places and with, with the people that you feel recognized by. Take these long days to like really soak in where it does feel good, where, where I do feel recognized, right? Um, and for the generators listening, it's going to be more like where you do feel satisfied. Right. It's like, take, take the time that you do have and use that in the spaces where you do feel satisfied. And then what shifted is I just started to feel more fulfilled in those in real life, you know, via WhatsApp or via text message, like, you know, intentional communication spaces. Um, and. I really unhooked and kind of created a little bit of space, you know, um, one of the keys to mindfulness is creating that space between stimulus and response. And there was just no space, no space before. And now I feel like there's healthy space. Right. And I'm back on, I've deleted it a couple of weeks ago. Like I just, I just delete it when I start to feel like the space is getting encroached on. I'm like, no, you're gone. And knowing that I can just have it open on the browser if I need to like check in or whatever, but just kind of like giving it a little bit of like, like a, like a clingy child. It's like, okay, no, but it's not a child, obviously it's not a sentient being, but, um, just that feeling of like, Being climbed on'cause it is that all those hooks

Shannon:

Yeah. Well, and it's like, it's, I mean, the, the average person now, cause I, I did my master's thesis research in, on smartphone attachment and poetry That's

Andrea:

I was telling Courtney. Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah, so the name of the thesis was, um, is it's, it's published as a contribution to the field of psychological research, whatever that means. Um, but it's a research contribution is what it means. And, and, um, the name of the thesis project was, um, uh,, recovery of the lost self from smartphone attachment, but it's actually poetry therapy, poetry therapy for recovery of the lost self from smartphone attachment. And and it looks at poetry therapy. So, so the power of the poem written by, um, written a poem written by us or a poem read, you know, that, that a poem has the power to hold something just like a song. It, it's a container with a beginning, middle, and an end. And because it's boundaried and because it's, it's often rhythmic and because it, it accesses the right brain and it accesses the, the heart, a poem can hold deeper levels of human emotion and soul material psychic material that, that is just different than what other things can hold. And, and then also smartphone attachment. We are developing attachment relationships to these devices. So meaning. We, some, some people, especially those with insecure attachment styles are more vulnerable to developing an addictive relationship, a compulsive relationship with their smartphone device, and the device itself is acting as a secure base. It's acting as a human or like a parental figure or a partner that is, is meeting or, or. facading to meet our human needs through, um, I mean, if you think about it, it's like, well, the phone's always there as long as there's electricity. So if that person can't be there for me, well, guess what can. This, this device. And so whether it's an anxious attachment or avoidant attachment, the phone meets those vulnerabilities. And the average person now is spending 61 to 80 days. per year on their, on their smartphone. and what that, and those are 24 hour days. So the average person now is spending between two to three months per year. If you live to mid seventies. 10 years, 10 years, and, and so I don't think that we are, I actually, I know, I know we're not aware of the life energy that's going into these devices. And because of the short term dopamine satisfaction that we are getting from these app companies and developers who are benefiting from our attention, I just think there's a deeper reckoning

Andrea:

There really is.

Shannon:

And I addicted. I am addicted and I need to be saying that out loud because it's so normalized and it's like, Oh, I'm not addicted. I'm just messaging Andrea. Oh, I'm not addicted. I'm just voice noting my sister. Oh, I'm not addicted. I'm just checking my email for the 15th time today. Oh, I'm not addicted. I'm just listening to another podcast. Oh, I'm not addicted. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just.

Andrea:

Yeah,

Courtney:

your um, poetry, when you were talking about poetry, it made me think of Audre Lorde. Um, and her, Um, a poetry is not a luxury, she says, it's a vital necessity to existence and it forms a quality of light, which I think is so great going back to this light conversation, but it forms a quality of within which we predicate our hopes and dreams towards survival and change first made into language, then into idea, then into more tangible action. Um, And I really love like,

Shannon:

wow,

Courtney:

you're knitting together this idea of like poetry and attention and connection. Um, because poetry, creating poetry, I'm a writer too. So like a lot of what you've said, I feel like totally just read right now. But, um,

Andrea:

Hmm.

Shannon:

Mmm.

Courtney:

like protecting that creative energy, um, and facing your attachment. Style and understanding that like it's beyond your mother and your lover, you know Like we attach to a lot of different things including technology, you know in this moment We can realize that we have a deep attachment wound that's like Manifesting and how we handle technology, but we have to in order to make poetry, I believe Um, it takes a lot of attention. It takes it takes a level of focus because what you're trying, you're trying to communicate a lot of layers of at once and it needs to be vulnerable and it needs to be, um, it needs to be clear, like whatever's coming through. I feel like because you don't have the space to explain it. Does that make sense? I feel like in prose, you have space to kind of like explain and like, this is what I mean by this. And this is what I mean by this. And there's something about poetry, even though there's simile and metaphor and all these other things, it's really about, um, getting raw with your language to say exactly what you mean, exactly what you want, exactly what you desire or what you see. And in order to do that, you have to. The attention, all your attention has to be on that thing, right? Um, and so it's It is such a insidious thing, this economy of attention, and the ways that social media and smartphones, smartphones as a, as a, as a thing, I think it's like, it's almost like beyond like internet or social media, it's like literally all the ways that you said that we're so attached to this thing, um, that It's impacting our capacity to hold all the things that like poetry brings us like capacity to hold nuance. Um, like a, a kind of presence with our, with our state of being, with our state of our emotions, with the state of our body, um, our proximity and connection to other people, like all of those things. I just, it's such a beautiful, like I'm, I love, we talk a lot about, you know, the three, five profile a lot. And I feel like this is such a gorgeous example of like the three, five, um, because you know, projection, the way you deal with projection is a big part of how you move through the world. Like people are projecting a lot on you. And so you have to have this like way to anchor yourself in your authentic self. In order to not get caught up in people's, you know, projections of you based on your ability to, like, fulfill their, the needs that they project onto you, you know what I mean? Yes. Like, their expectations of you, right? And, and there is, There are few things more disruptive to your sense of authentic self than your smartphone. You know what I mean? Like literally, literally, literally. So this is just gorgeous. Like we're like cracking through so many things at once right now. It is wild, but it's so beautiful.

Shannon:

May I read a poem?

Andrea:

course.

Courtney:

Of course. That'd be beautiful. That'd be great.

Shannon:

This, cause I, I feel like what you're, what, uh, what you're saying, Courtney, is just like, like, yes. And I love that. I love that connection to the three, five, because in order an artist. An artist's greatest tool, their only tool or one of the most fundamental ones, is attention. right? And the poet has to pay attention. And then the three five Like, I'm just feeling into the experience when I write poetry, when poetry comes through. It is like the 3 5 dynamic in real time, because it's like, it's like, the poem is coming through experientially,

Courtney:

Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Yes but

Shannon:

then the poem itself is An offering of leadership.

Courtney:

God, it's true. Yep.

Shannon:

And I feel like I just feel so drawn to, to, to read this.

Courtney:

Getting the chills.

Shannon:

I feel so drawn to read this poem right now because it's, um, it's a poem that I wrote. Uh, when I was contending with, I really gonna write my thesis?

Courtney:

Mm.

Shannon:

a, I, I almost did my thesis on another topic that I'm equally passionate about. However, this felt really edgy to me. Like the smartphone attachment felt like I was at a personal edge. In a way that the other topic, I, the other topic is really amazing as well, but, but I was like, this is the one I chose. And it was like,

Courtney:

love that.

Shannon:

and I was, I walked just to give context. I walked, I was living in Topanga Canyon in Los Angeles, this like Canyon up in the mountains, there's peacocks and bobcats and mountain lions and bunnies. and birds and all and it's like a very natural environment and I happened to live a 20 minute walk to a cafe. It's kind of unusual in Topanga to be able to walk to a cafe. So I would do this little ritual of leaving my phone at home and walking 20 minutes to the cafe. Getting a coffee, just going with my journal and being in the cafe with community, but being without my device and being with my pen and paper.

Courtney:

Wow.

Shannon:

And so I got the walking time, the regulation, the bilateral stimulation. I got the community time. I got the creative time. I got the coffee time.

Andrea:

Yeah.

Shannon:

On this one particular day, I was like, really, I was like, leaving the phone at home with the intention to, um, to, to kind of like feel into this thesis topic. Like I was kind of, I was at a breaking point, like, am I going to do this? Am I going to like, really choose this topic? Because we had to, we had to make a choice at this time. So I walk to the cafe, I get the coffee, I sit down, I open the page to my journal, and I, I put the pen on the page, and then I, and then I reach for my pocket.

Courtney:

Wow

Shannon:

And then I remember, oh right, I didn't bring my phone, but my body, my body is in the wiring. It's a somatic addiction.

Andrea:

Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

Shannon:

something that happens before I start scrolling, and that's me reaching for my thigh to get the phone out of my pocket.

Courtney:

Mm. Mm mm mm.

Shannon:

and I was like, so, so this poem is called Reaching for the Phone I Left at Home on Purpose. And this is what came through because my phone wasn't in that pocket.

Courtney:

Wow.

Shannon:

so is it okay? I can read it now?

Andrea:

do it. Yes.

Shannon:

Okay. I have it here. So this is reaching, reaching for the phone I left at home on purpose. Liberation from the digital cell, a prison of colorful, careful, calculated design. I freed myself. The cell keys were in my hand the whole time. But that phone sticks to my palm like Christmas coins cling to the white taped hands of the sticky bandits. In Home Alone, who knew hitting the lottery would steal my soul and distract me from millions of moments of presence and purpose and peace? It's difficult to mourn the unlived life. Who would I be without this weapon of mass distraction? Who would I have become? Would I be a comedian, writing jokes and receiving belly laughs instead of cheap likes? Would I be a sensuous lover, meeting men in parks and bars and restaurants instead of scrolling for the man I'll never find? Would I be deeply steeped in writing a novel? Immersed in a world of my mind's own design? Instead of torn apart in thousands of fragmented pieces of cat vids and TikToks and influencers and trauma porn? Who profits from the grand theft of my soul? This macrochip I carry with me where'er I go. How do I find the lost one I might have become? Do I still have a chance to break him free? And embrace is becoming.

Courtney:

Wow. Oh my God, that's so beautiful.

Shannon:

Thank you for letting me bring it into this, the space.

Courtney:

Oh, that's so important.

Andrea:

It was the perfect space for it Yeah.

Courtney:

It is.

Andrea:

So important. Um, I think that, um, it relates so much to human design. It's crazy. Um, and it really relates.

Courtney:

We're getting so many downloads.

Andrea:

it really relates to Pluto going through Aquarius as well. Right. I think um,

Shannon:

Can you tell me like a little, like a sentence on that?

Andrea:

yeah, so Pluto is the Lord of the underworld. And and Pluto is the planet of transformation. It is the planet of death and rebirth. Um,

Shannon:

Mm-hmm. Wow.

Andrea:

dwarf planet, whatever you want to call it, but yeah, revolution. So,

Shannon:

um,

Courtney:

I

Andrea:

is, um, the modern ruler of Aquarius is Uranus. The traditional ruler is Saturn. Um, Aquarius is Uranus. Is really the, the part of our chart that is most out there kind of think, um, revolutionary in a. um, like think outside of the box kind of way. Um, but always for the greater good. So it's. Um, and it's

Shannon:

mm

Andrea:

the archetype is the humanitarian, but it's the humanitarian in a fuck shit up kind of way. Not in a keep the peace of way

Shannon:

There is it's like the whole world's getting on my Scorpio level.

Andrea:

Right. Totally. Totally. totally. I love that. That

Shannon:

under that kind of like underworld shadow. I mean,'cause that's what that poem is. It's, it's, um, feeling into the shadow.

Andrea:

Yeah.

Shannon:

like, I've done, I've done the light. I've done, I've done the, like the social media is amazing. Facebook, Instagram, like, like culturally in 2010, when that iPhone came out, we leaned in and we leaned in hard culturally. We didn't see it. This is the future, we are connected,

Andrea:

Right.

Shannon:

and, and so this moment for me in that poem, just speaking for me personally, was like, but what about

Andrea:

Well, and this is what is so cool. Yes. Because Pluto rules Scorpio,

Shannon:

Oh hey!

Andrea:

Pluto is in Scorpio, Pluto rules Scorpio. So this is like that death and rebirth energy. That very Scorpio energy coming into an air sign that is about revolution. So, you know, astrologers have been talking about this time as a time when AI is really gonna take off and, um, there's going to be, you know, so many developments, but. that shadow is going to have to be reckoned with in the process. And I think what Pluto does is really just like a Scorpio. I have a Scorpio moon, so I, you know, love me some Scorpio. I actually have three places, three placements in Scorpio. I think I have, At least two, maybe three. Um, so that like healthy excavating of the decomposing matter so that oxygen can get in and it can be transmuted. Right? So the whole purpose of these Pluto placements is, yes, there, there is a lot of upheaval that comes with the transit. Because Pluto is naturally like what in here is stagnant? Like what in here is rotting and stinks like let's bottom of this. You know?

Shannon:

Mm.

Andrea:

So that we can get some oxygen in and start healing. So that we can start healing. So, um, I think that that poem is such a beautiful representation of that and a really healthy reminder to to question everything, everything that takes you into not self is worth questioning.

Courtney:

Mm hmm.

Shannon:

Right. And do I, do I get to be in right relationship? What does it look like to be in right relationship with myself? And what does it look like to be in right relationship? This is like this kind of, this Buddhist concept of right relationship. What does it look like to be in right relationship? In that right relationship with technology and who, like, I love, um, there's Kate Shayla, or I think her name's pronounced Kate Sheila, uh, who's a, um, 360 dance emergence ecstatic dance facilitator. Um, who's just so incredibly gifted and I love the prompt, go get yourself, go get yourself and looking at it from an internal family systems, parts work perspective is like, like, who might I have become is a reclamation of self and soul. And the exiles, like, what? What are the parts of self that got exiled as I over prioritized and emphasized this, this, uh, feedback system of, Oh, I need to spend a lot of time here on this app and in the, on this phone, because I'm getting so much. Um, kind of like, like different from what you were saying, Andrea, is like those moments where I feel like I've gotten so much recognition

Courtney:

Oh,

Shannon:

through that platform that it, and this is where attachment style gets interesting. If you look at attachment as a, as a, um, or addiction, sorry, rather, if you look at addiction as an attachment disorder an attachment need, and there's there's really great research on addiction as a, as an attachment disorder by this psychologist, Philip Flores. And what that looks like is I am not okay in myself. Talk about like the, the self energy. there's like a hole in my center, in my in my solar plexus, and I need to reach outside of myself, the way it's described is a lack of ego. The ego is the solar plexus. We need ego to say, I. The ego can have a bad rap in the spiritual community, like you're being egoic. But like, actually, the ego structure is something that's needed for me to be like, hello, my name is Shannon and I exist in this body

Andrea:

to have a

Shannon:

are valid I matter.

Andrea:

Yeah. absolutely.

Shannon:

And so the, the pattern of like getting a sense of self that's over, um, developed, like needing the likes, needing the followers, needing the external, uh, and that could be, that could be through social media, that could be a sense of self that's accessed through drinking, that could be a sense of self that's accessed through the love of a partner, and when the

Courtney:

Mm hmm.

Shannon:

The partner's validation doesn't come through. So it's like, how do we do the work of going and getting ourselves? Um, or as my friend Nikki Myers talks about in her work of Yoga and the 12 Step Recovery, addiction is the disease of the lost self.

Courtney:

Wow.

Shannon:

And that any time that I reach outside myself for something that can only be sourced on the inside, I am in an, in an addictive relationship with that thing.

Courtney:

Mm.

Shannon:

And, and then, as my friend Kerry Kelly talks about, like, what does it look like to have accountability for our behaviors?

Andrea:

mm-hmm

Shannon:

and grace. And this is what I've been really working with lately, is like how I am accountable to my relationship with my smartphone. No one else can get inside of my hand and, and put the phone down.

Courtney:

Right. I

Shannon:

need to take some accountability for that. And I need to have grace and compassion for the ways in which the phone is is, is supporting me and filling something up

Andrea:

Yeah,

Shannon:

and, and also is just a cultural complex in a way. Like we're

Andrea:

It is. is.

Courtney:

Absolutely. Yes. Going through this.

Andrea:

It

Courtney:

think is the other thing about Pluto, right?

Andrea:

Mm-hmm

Courtney:

It's part of being human because, you know, Pluto, outer planets are generational. So we're talking about a collective shift that's happened moving, you know, when Pluto's, you know, transiting out of Capricorn for the last time in our lifetime. into Aquarius for the next 20 years.

Shannon:

Mm.

Courtney:

You know, like this is a general, this is a world phenomenon that we are all going through together. And, um, it's very different than like a moon transit, you know, like you're looking at your moon, you're looking at your Sun and it gets very personal. The outer planets are more generational. It's like, we're all going to be connected in this experience together. Um, so, uh, so like there's so much. So much of you're saying, Andrea, like you go ahead. I have like a thousand things want say, but like,

Shannon:

I love hearing the two of you talk about Pluto. It feels really healing to hear. To like zoom out, especially in this moment that we're in.

Andrea:

Yeah. The thing I wanna remind us and everybody listening of is that. This is why strategy and authority is so important. I think for me, what was so successful about my reorientation with social media, and I am on there, but I'm not hooked the way that I was, is because I was really listening to my strategy and authority. And so for some people listening, you might be like, I'm fine. And if you're not frustrated or bitter. Then you are fine. And you to feel frustrated or bitter or angry or whatever your not self is,

Courtney:

or bored for the reflectors out there, which is, you know, important,

Andrea:

bored slash disillusioned.

Courtney:

Um, hmm.

Andrea:

then that's really, that's really your signal. That's your internal signaling system. Right. And I think the vast majority of people are in the not self on their devices, whether it be social media or email or whatever, right? Like the vast majority of people that I talk to, um, are not feeling satisfied. Right. Or successful, their digital relationship, right? So hopefully you're taking some nuggets away of just, um, opening up some space to question, opening up some space to experiment, learning from a very seasoned third line in ways that we can experiment in this regard. Yes. I'm talking about you, Shannon.

Shannon:

Could just say the, um, the, so our brains developed for roughly 2 million years to crave and need. Biologically and evolutionarily, tone of voice, facial expression.

Courtney:

Wow.

Shannon:

And so if you notice, you are, um, irritable having that text back and forth. If you're maybe hearing a tone through the text message exchange. or assuming like if the conversation's not going well via text,

Courtney:

Mm.

Shannon:

that's because our brains are on these devices and they're deeply, deeply, deeply dissatisfied with the lack of facial expression and the lack of tone of voice that, that is. essential for human connection. So just bringing in that, that, um, element as well is like, um, the psychologist, who's the head of the MIT department of technology in the self who, uh, her name is Sherry Turkle. She wrote a book called alone together and has been studying. She's, she's been, um, uh, pink and red flag waving since like the, um, cyborg, like virtual reality days of the early nineties, she's been observing people's with technology, like, and calling it forward psychologically long before the smartphone

Courtney:

Wow.

Shannon:

And she talks about the 40 percent decrease in empathy. Um, amongst college students over the last 20 years, which is since the smartphone arrived in 2010, was when the iPhone launched and that we have slowly come to expect less from each other than we used to. To hear

Andrea:

Yeah.

Shannon:

the carriage, the horse, the horse hooves on the dirt coming to bring the daily post and, and the dopamine and the, the somatic relationship to the environment that came from the daily post.

Courtney:

Yeah. Receiving the communal information. Yeah. There was like a ritual. There's like an environmental ritual to it.

Shannon:

Exactly. And so just like, again, like, like how to call this out without like demonizing coming back to that. Yes.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Um, and, and yet it's also like without calling it out and calling it forward, how do we empower ourselves as individuals to question what we have merged with?

Courtney:

Yes. I want to, Oh, this is so good. I want to go back. This is like, what's been on my mind and and like kind of layering up as you've been talking. Uh, but I really loved your, how, Beautifully and detail. You described, um, the process of getting to the point where you could write the poem, your poem.

Shannon:

Mm

Courtney:

mm Because it felt, first of all, it felt so sensual. It was very me, very much pure generator. Like you were, like, it was like sense language, like Very show, not tell very much, like, um, like feeling the sun on your body, like, um, reaching for your thigh, like all these very sense level. Things that, you know, as generators, we are responding that is our strategies to respond and we're responding to stimuli and we're particularly looking for the stimuli that makes that like lights us up that like brings out those nonverbal kind of guttural, you know, oohs and aahs out of us that like gives us like the, the, the feel good sensation. There's some places I've read it's like, you know, these orgasmic sensations or these, like, when you eat a plate of food and it's like one of the best things you've ever eaten, you know, kind of, um, feelings like that is what we're gravitating towards. And I really love that you like, Bread crumbed yourself to that place where you could sit down at the cafe and process that moment. And there's something really beautiful when you're talking about, like, we don't want to demonize. And I'm like, well, that's where strategy and authority come in. Right. Because and also individuation, because we're dealing with a very, um, A heavily conforming moment, this technological moment made us very conformed to it, right? I mean, and that was like the whole point of like the smartphone. Yeah. And a very already, like the The supremacist delusion that was already there. Yeah, exactly. And so like, um, just this thought of like, do you have, do you have the Apple or the Samsung? You know, do you have the blue bubble or the green bubble? Like these ways of. Like putting us in these camps and trying to define ourselves, um, in this out, this external force, you know, it's like you were saying, we're reaching out trying to look for, you know, definition and connection, to this thing, but this thing in a way. Through capitalism reaching out to us to, you know, it's like, it's grabbing us too. And so like you, but we have to be gentle with ourselves. Like you said, like, we have have grace and the grace and the, and the strategy and authority allows us to get in touch with like that somatic level connection that you said, like that body connection that was such a sacral thing to say that like, this is past rationale, you know, we are not in the prefrontal cortex right now. We are in some deep lizard shit, you know, like are so like, this is trying to become a part of us in a way that it can never be.

Shannon:

Mm.

Courtney:

know, even if it's an implant, even if it's a, whatever, like a skin graft, it will never be us. so

Shannon:

Mm. Mm. Mm.

Courtney:

creating the space in a gentle, loving, curious, experiential, explorative way to reconnect with our own, like the technology we were born with. You know, like the layers beyond our rationale, like this, this sense knowledge, this emotional knowledge, you know, depending on what your definition is and what your authority is, the splenic knowledge, like these places where we can understand, um, this is not, you know, like, It's not a comment on someone else's, uh, relationship with a smartphone. It's a comment on my own satisfaction with my relationship or my own, you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't become like a, It's not a critique, it's a It's an experiment, literally.

Shannon:

ceremony.

Courtney:

It's a, yes. It's Yes. Yes.

Shannon:

It's a ceremony. It's a ritual. It's an experiment. It's a journey. It's, it's, um, what does it mean to be in relationship with self? What does it mean to go get yourself? What does it mean to reorient towards community? Like one example from my, so I did as a part of my thesis experiment, I did 45 days of the flip phone.

Courtney:

Oh, that sounds wild. Please say more.

Shannon:

Yeah, so I had 45 days of the flip phone. I went into T Mobile and they have, uh, they sold me a flip phone. They sold me a flip phone. It's for teens and grannies. teens and grannies who want digits. They want digits. They want simplicity. They want, they don't. And so I, I bought myself a flip phone. And one of the things I was curious about was my relationship with geography, my relationship with land. And I felt Like my relationship with Los Angeles has been a complex layered one. Um, and, but, but, you know, on a deeper level, I've felt this sort of like lack of resonance or this sort of like dissonance culturally. And I got curious about, about the GPS. So the, the Google maps and the Waze and what it means that I, that I look at this screen and follow this blue line versus take in, Oh, like there's the donut shop and when I see the donut shop, I turn left. left When I see that row of trees, I turn right, like, like really starting, like really expanding myself into the land, into the, into the collective and, and how that has been blunted by GPS. It's like, I always, it's like, even when I know, even when I've gone to a place a hundred times, somehow I still put in the GPS. So yeah, yeah, just plug it in. So I didn't have that option for this 45 days, but I still had to get around LA. so I would go on computer and I would This is such

Andrea:

a 3rd line thing, sorry,

Courtney:

I'm sweating right now. Sweating.

Shannon:

Yeah, i, I would go, I would go on my computer and my place in Topanga and I would pull up the maps and I would. Pull up the directions and I lived up in Topanga. So when I went places in LA, I was going like 45 minutes to an hour away,

Courtney:

Oh my goodness.

Shannon:

But I, you know, I, I knew, I knew, I always kind of knew how to get halfway somewhere. It was always like, you know, the last leg of landing the plane, I would write out. The directions line line.

Andrea:

style.

Shannon:

by hand.

Courtney:

Mm, wow.

Shannon:

So my br and the way I thought about this is my brain has engaged with the steps or the or the street names. I'm slowing down

Courtney:

hmm. Mm-hmm Mm-hmm

Shannon:

To like kind of connecting to the steps that I'm going to take. And there were, most of the time that worked well. And there were a couple times where I was like, I'm supposed to meet someone at this time, and I can't find the place. And so I called my sister in New York. And I'm like, okay, I'm here. Can you help me get to this restaurant? And. I was thinking about that from an attachment perspective, is here I am, and this is where I think it's interesting how the phones are the, come from capitalism, industrialization,

Courtney:

Mm

Shannon:

modernity, and so they are in service of those systems, and those systems are connected to this, um, higher priority, higher value of, of hyper individuation or hyper individualization And so this phone becomes a tool for me to not need people from an attachment perspective, as much. And so here I am on the phone. Molly, my sister, like, help me. Can you help me? And she's like, I got it. I got it. And I'm pulling it up. Okay. Go left here. Go right here. And so all of a sudden, and this is just one small little example, right? But there's so many moments. There's so many moments. I think, yeah, that was another section of my thesis called The Moments We Miss.

Andrea:

Mmm,

Shannon:

that's sort of like a poetic prose, um, piece about, uh, towards the end of my 45 days with the flip phone, I was really starting to see the world differently. It's like seeing people on their phones everywhere. It starts to like itself. The more that I stepped back from that.

Courtney:

Yeah. It's weird. It's trippy.

Shannon:

It gets weird. It's like, it's like, Oh my gosh. But so, I mean, I could, I could speak more to that, but just these moments that we missed. Yes. and these little attachments to loved ones and this practice, this practice that I believe is medicine for me. And I don't think it's just me that this is medicine for this practice of, of asking for the village to support us. Like, uh, and having the village ready. And being a member of the village who can also provide support. And it's, it's an ongoing curiosity for me of like the degree to which the phone replaces or, or, or thinks, well, the phone doesn't think, but the, the idea of the phone allowing me to not need my people is one that I think should raise great alarm for us because we, we need each other.

Andrea:

Yes. We do. Wow. We do.

Courtney:

Oh my goodness. That hour went very Oh my gosh. It really did. It's went very quickly.

Shannon:

Oh my gosh, and it's 11:11 here in, in California.

Courtney:

How beautiful. Angel numbers. We love it.

Andrea:

Oh, Shannon. I think we might have to have a part two cause I feel like.

Courtney:

I think so.

Andrea:

This was good.

Shannon:

Yes, please. I would talk to, I need, I need to hear you two talk about Pluto like weekly.

Courtney:

Well, we probably will be ish. We probably will be just,

Shannon:

I mean, it doesn't have to be Pluto. Just, just connecting with the two of you is such medicine talking about village.

Andrea:

Love. Yeah, it really is. I had to look up both of your Pluto's because I was like, this is feeling very Scorpio to me. And you both have Pluto and Scorpio, which is a,

Shannon:

my Pluto's in in Scorpio too? Mm hmm. Oh, wow.

Andrea:

Which is a generational thing. Yeah, mine is at the end of Libra and I'm in, like, the, um, Oregon Trail section of Gen X, so, like, we didn't grow up with computers. Like, I was actually, I did a, um, I did

Shannon:

I played Oregon trail.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

oh yes, I was big into Oregon Trail,

Courtney:

my God.

Andrea:

and Carmen Sandiego, I loved that that game.

Courtney:

Oh my my God.

Shannon:

Did you ever play where in the USA is Carmen Sandiego? That was like a spinoff cD ROM.

Courtney:

Oh

Shannon:

my

Courtney:

my CD ROM games.

Andrea:

Yes. Um, when I first moved to Mexico, my very first blog was where in the world is Andrea Ward

Courtney:

Oh my God, it's so great. perfect.

Shannon:

Oh my gosh, I love that

Andrea:

And it was going to be like a detail of my travels because by then, when I first started. I just moved back to Guadalajara. I had been in like six or seven cities. So every time I caught up with a friend, I was like, where in the world are you? So my Pluto is at the end of Libra. Um, but yeah, I just think, um, this, moment is It's really, um, it's really pivotal for all of us and I just love the resources and tools that you are sharing, Shannon, because I think that we have, we have access to be in healthy relationship, to be in right relationship, as Ra would say, like in the human design world, we say, to be correct, to be correct with something, to to enter into something correctly, to leave correctly, to be in, To be operating correctly around something. We, we have the awareness to do that now, but it does take building up that skillset, that muscle to be able to recognize the not self, be able to recognize where it's coming from and be able to have the stamina and the capacity to do something about it. Right. And, and that is a somatic experience, right? You have to have the energy available to pave those new neural pathways. It takes energy to be able to change.

Courtney:

It does. Mm hmm.

Shannon:

Yeah, and I love that both of you are calling in the SOMA. The somatic of the body because this is this is a technology that's that's has much more wisdom and experience in being with us. And like the Soma of the land of Mother earth, what it means to be in relationship with the land, to be in relationship with our bodies. And that to me is such a medicine to, to be with community, to be with land, to be with body.

Andrea:

Mm.

Courtney:

Mm

Shannon:

these are the medicines. We can't just stop using our smartphones or beat ourselves up for being on our phones eight hours a day. to run into the arms of the medicine of of of how we get free together.

Courtney:

Yes. and reclaiming our time, retain, reclaiming our time back from the ideas capitalism is feeding us through these technologies that we don't have time to connect to each other,

Shannon:

Mm, mm-hmm

Courtney:

you know, that we don't have time to connect to earth, that we don't have time to connect to our bodies, you know, that it's reclaiming our Yes, I don't want convenient, I want connection.

Andrea:

I mean how convenient for the systems that we don't have time to do that.

Courtney:

Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That part

Shannon:

right

Andrea:

That keeps us enslaved to the systems yeah.

Shannon:

The promises of convenience culture, the, the promises and the costs.

Courtney:

and the cost. Yes.

Andrea:

so much

Courtney:

beautiful.

Andrea:

So much. juiciness. Well, we, I can't wait to hear for those that have listened, what your thoughts are. Come see us. Um, there's a sub stack link in the show notes where you can come and comment and interact. Um, and we will make sure Shannon gets to see those comments as well. And we're just so grateful you're here and a part of the community Shannon.

Shannon:

Yeah. Thank you both so much. Oh my gosh.

Courtney:

Thank you. This was so cool. So wonderful meeting you and you, your insights are gorgeous. I love, I love the. The beauty of your work, you know, it's important work. It's, it's full of great information and it's practical, but it's really beautiful. And that I feel like is such a important, it's such a beautiful generator, you know, generator, like feature of yours to make something that's, that's beautiful on a sense level, as well as being useful.

Shannon:

Oh my gosh. Thank you so much for that reflection. And like, yeah, yes. And thank you for seeing that. And I feel that from the two of you so much as well. Thank you for creating this space for us to be together.

Courtney:

Thank you so much for tuning in to HD and Liberation podcast. We hope you've gained valuable insights into human design and its role in building a life of peace, success, satisfaction, and wonder. If you've enjoyed this episode, please show your support by liking, following, and sharing our podcast. on YouTube, or your favorite podcast platform. Your engagement helps us reach more people who can benefit from this wisdom. For exclusive content and to join our thriving community, consider becoming a Patreon member. Your support allows us to continue exploring the depths of human design and its potential for life and community transformation. Stay tuned for more fun, thoughtful, and impacting discussions. Together, we're unlocking the path to a more liberated and authentic life. Thank you for being a part of HD and Liberation Podcast.

People on this episode

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Andrea Ward Berg

Co-host
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Courtney Napier

Co-host
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Shannon Algeo

Guest