HDxLiberation: A Human Design Podcast

S2, Ep. 2: Navigating Rage, Hope, and Community in Challenging Times, with guest Dr. Brittney Cooper

• Courtney Napier, Andrea Ward Berg, Dr. Brittney Cooper • Season 2 • Episode 2

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In this episode of the Human Design and Liberation podcast, Andrea and Courtney interview tenured professor at Rutgers and a New York Times bestselling author Dr. Brittney Cooper. They discuss the intersection of human design and liberation theology while delving into Dr. Cooper's journey and her influential work, including her book 'Eloquent Rage.' The conversation spans various topics such as the 2024 election, political dynamics, hope motivation, and the importance of right relationships over right politics. Dr. Cooper shares personal experiences and insights on sustaining hope, the significance of community, and the challenges of navigating through a tumultuous socio-political landscape.

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Andrea:

Hi, I'm Andrea.

Courtney:

Hey y'all, this is Courtney and welcome to the Human Design and Liberation podcast.

Andrea:

This is a space where we explore how human design and liberation theology intersect with the past, present, and future.

Courtney:

With the intent of sharing the beauty and pain of the human experience to encourage you in your liberation journey.

Andrea:

Yay.

Courtney:

Hello

Andrea:

Hello. Hello. Hello.

Brittney:

Hello.

Andrea:

to Dr. BBrittneyCooper. We're so excited you're here.

Courtney:

Yes.

Brittney:

So glad to be here. Oh,

Courtney:

It's amazing.

Andrea:

I just want to read a little bit of your bio for our listeners, because I have had the pleasure of knowing your work since 2020. I think I found you either through Rebecca Berucchi or somebody that I found through Bex. I'm not exactly who, but your lives in 2020 literally like saved my sanity. Um, In so many ways. And, uh, when you reached out last year about human design, Courtney can vouch that I nearly lost my mind. I was so excited. I was like, I don't fangirl over many people, but Dr. Cooper and Beyonce are my people. Like, I literally was problem. Losing my mind.

Courtney:

Yeah. Oh my God. I forgot. I didn't realize that my toothbrush was back here. Um, and I have no help because I was doing the same exact thing. So just fanning the flame of admiration.

Andrea:

all that to say, we love your work. And I mean, I know I already told you a lot of this when, you know, we sat down with your design last year, but, um, it's just such an honor to get to explore this with you. And, um, it feels very validating for what I have felt in my soul and what Courtney has felt in her soul around the potential of human design to support liberation. Um, but. you can only live out your design through your unique trajectory. And so as others are living it out through theirs, and then you get confirmation of, you know, what you thought was the potential. So excited, um, to talk about that.

video1088551831:

love

Brittney:

that.

Andrea:

So I just want to tell the people about you. So I'm just going to go off the cuff. Um, if that's okay. Um, so Dr. Cooper is a professor at Rutgers, um, a tenured professor of women's gender and sexuality studies, um, as well as Africana studies. She's also a New York times bestseller of the book eloquent rage, a black feminist discovers her superpower amongst many other books. Um, and I feel like eloquent rage is such a book for this time. Um, So for anybody listening who hasn't discovered that book yet, please pick it up. Um, it's just, it really speaks to how to use that rage and how that rage is righteous rage. And, um, for me anyway, it really validated a lot of my experience. Um, we turned the heat on in Atlanta if you're watching the video and, Ooh, it's like nobody knows how to like level it. You know, it's like,

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

So it's, um, sweaty up in this podcast recording room. So, um, sorry about that. So I. Um, also just want to say that you co founded a feminist collective that is really fantastic and explores so many different, uh, relevant topics. Um, it's called the Crunk Feminist Collective and you are Professor Crunk on Instagram. So it is all on brand. Um, And so I'm hopeful we can get into a little bit of that as well. Um, so what, what Courtney and I, you know, obviously when we booked this interview, we thought we would be having this interview in different circumstances. Right. Um, it was pre election. Um, and you know, I am still celebrating how much. Was done in those hundred days and obviously learning, um, from the unfortunate results, but, um, I know that you feel this way, even though we're grieving, we feel resolved. Like there's not a single black woman that I've talked to that's like surprised by the result. Um, and I think that speaks to the amount of work that we just. to do like with that work hasn't changed. Um, but what I think Courtney and I were hoping to talk about is, um, what is new for you in this process? Because this year took a turn that you weren't expecting. And just like, you know, what's new for you? what has been the ups and the downs and what are you gleaning from that?

Brittney:

Um, I mean, I appreciate the question. Let me begin, though, by saying so. I'm happy to be with y'all. And I actually remember meeting you, Andrea, in the, uh, In the comments section of someone else's like Instagram thread and, um, and I think I was saying that I was a, that I'm a 6/2 projector and you were like, I'm a 6/2 projector and that was where the project happened. actually distinctly remember that. that. Yes.

Courtney:

yes.

Brittney:

and so, um, you know, what I, I mean, listen, one of the things that, that has been true since November 5th and, and the, you know, just the sinking, the sinking feeling of that day. I got up on the 5th. Um, I went to Howard where the vice president of the college. And so I was going to put on my Howard sweater and I'm going to put on some pearls and I'm going to put on these, um, Converse that I got at the Democratic National Convention at this brunch that black women threw for her there. Um, and I'm going to just try to like wear this set of this possibility on my, on my body, just trying to, to allow myself to be hopeful. Um, you know, and to be, I tend to be an eternal, I'm an eternal optimist. Usually I don't go in thinking of all the worst case scenarios to begin. I always believe like we can be better. Um, and I think that Having that sensibility is really important for the work I do. I don't think Um, I don't feel the freedom or rather the indulgence of cynicism. Um,

Courtney:

Mm,

Brittney:

I think you have to be able to believe that a new world is possible and that people can show up differently given a different set of options. And so I went into the day hopeful and then had those hopes dashed again. Uh, I remember, um, You know, thinking about the fact the day before I had done an Instagram live and I said, I'm willing to be a fool for the proposition, right? Um, that we, that this black girl can win and can run things. And so, know, the, the, the challenge of the moment is that we live in a country that, that enjoys making fools out of the hopeful, right?

Andrea:

mm,

Brittney:

That, joys, um, particularly.

Courtney:

Yes.

Brittney:

Particularly vulnerable people who are hopeful. It's fine. Um, making believers out of, um, white folks and people who have privilege. Um, I've been watching the, like, you know, the farce that is the kind of, you know, all of the appointments for the new administration, um, and the way that it's like, just, we experienced it as a nightmare and it's just the fulfilling of all these perverse dreams that these people have to do harm to other people. yeah,

Courtney:

Yeah. Mm-Hmm?

Brittney:

And, you know, and so what I feel is like, oh, we are in a country, much as I said, an eloquent rage, you know, that induces our rage and like tells us that we're unreasonable for, for feeling it. And so, you know, the last thing I'll say is, I don't know that rage is the place to which I have gone. Um, I think that what I feel is an overwhelming sense of. On the one hand, exhaustion, and it is exhaustion that comes from the resolve that you guys speak of, which is

Andrea:

mm hmm,

Brittney:

we're going to have to show up to this even though we don't want to, and we're going to have to fight in order to be okay, um, um and the level of fight that it takes to be okay, the stakes of that, it was already hard, and the stakes have gotten higher, and and so, I mean, rage is my constant companion, you know what I mean? But I'm like, not even the, you know, living in that space so much as just the, like the, the incredulity of it all. Like, this is unbelievable. Like I really believe that you all would act actually, like, it, distills down to this, like these folks have decided that rather than share power. With black woman, they would rather tank the entire planet because of course, given our senses on climate change and war new administration has the planet cannot survive that kind of policy, not in any healthy sense. And so people would rather there be no world at all. In a world that has any level of equality, and that is a staggering, um, and I think, like, deeply sad, like, you know, reality of, of, of what it means to live in our country.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

It really is. I think that it shows the level of survival that so many people are in, because when you are in that level of survival, you don't have access to your whole brain. And I've felt it. I mean, I have literally been in it and was kind of was in it with some tools from mindfulness and, you know, different things that I've been exposed to. But without any of those tools, I would have had no perspective. And, Unfortunately, the vast majority of our country doesn't have those tools. And I think that's the reason why they will choose what they perceive to be the best option for their survival over what's truly the option for all of our survival. Um, I do feel like we are in this You know, constant pendulum swing. And you talk about this, um, like the reactionary voting of like. The reaction to Obama's administration and the consequences to that being Trump. And then the fact that Biden was able to bring policies that we've never seen before, he was far more progressive than anyone who's ever been in the office before, even more progressive than Obama in a lot of ways. Um, and this swing in the opposite direction. And then how much of that relates to what we talk about with, um, This evolution as human beings from being seven centered to nine centered and really the struggle that we're having with that evolution. Right. I mean, we're struggling going from this idea of like, we're here to survive or be enlightened. To the nine centered way, which is we're here to commune and we're here to express like, that's the reason that we exist on the planet right now as humans. Um, and that's what really is behind this idea of, you know, um, universal basic income and like human rights being more than just, you know, you have a right to, um, You know, not be exploited. Like you actually have a right to being able to eat and have clean water. And, um, many corporations would disagree with that, I was just watching a documentary that included, you know, Nestle and how much of our clean water they have colonized. Um,

Courtney:

Mm.

Andrea:

so it's, uh, like paradigm shifting moment. And unfortunately what we chose is violence. I mean, that's what we chose. Like that's the country chose violence.

Brittney:

No, they absolutely did. Um. And, you know, I think that the challenge is there's a part of my brain that can sort of understand and even pity the kind of ignorance and the kind of malice and the kind of fear, right, that it takes to continue to make these decisions. terrible decisions, but there's also the part of me that is just deeply fed up with it because in the end, I'm like, you know, I grew up in the deep South and the rural South. I grew up in close proximity to white folks, particularly at school, not necessarily at home. And, you know, and in the deep South, it's very interesting because white folks there have, they have relationships with black people. Like they just be like, You know, have friendships and, and, you know, have camaraderie. And I was thinking about growing up in the eighties and nineties and like having white people that were my life, not every day, but they, but they weren't in an anomaly, you know what I mean? They like, wasn't the sort of segregation of the, of like urban areas or the urban North, that's not actually right. That folks live in these rural communities. Right. Um, and so they know black people up close who are salt of the earth and yet and who they would call in a crisis. And I have watched, uh, white folks in my communities back home who I know, know where the safe places are. And yet their, their romance with power leads. Right. And their, their desire for domination is the only, look, I, and I think it's a fundamental identity crisis, which is to say

Courtney:

yes,

Brittney:

whiteness is conceived as an identity rooted in domination. And so if domination is not available, then I think that some of it is that white folks literally don't know who they are in the world without

Andrea:

their yes. That part. Yes.

Brittney:

those of us who pointed this out to them, um, they resent those of us who point this out to them and who name whiteness as a thing that is structuring how they're moving and how they're thinking about the world. And yet, all of the choices they make, particularly emotionally and psychic, are all about maintaining whiteness, even though the only thing whiteness has ever offered to them, um, is dominance, right? Um, Not resources, not better health, not better relationships, not a feeling of community. It doesn't offer any of those things. It just offers the sense that at least you're not as bad off as some other group. And the way for you to maintain that is to produce the conditions for that group to be worse off. Um, and, you know, and I just think to myself, like, what kind of world, you know, produces humans like this and what a piss poor sense

Courtney:

Mm.

Brittney:

it should be in the world, right?

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

I mean, I think what you, what you touch on there is so vital because it offers dominance, but it also offers violence, right? Like it offers dominance through dehumanizing. And in order to dehumanize someone else, you have to dehumanize yourself first. when you look at like health outcomes. This is something that one of my favorite teachers, Milagros Phillips talks about a lot. She talks about, I'm sure you know Milagros, she's like amazing, but she talks about, um, the types of diseases that present in white identifying bodies versus the types of diseases that present in black identifying bodies. And, um, You see a lot of cancers, you see a lot of addictions, you see a lot of suicide, right? Like, these are all like, these are all illnesses that come from that dehumanizing of self in order to dehumanize others. Um, and it's, it's, it's bad business for everyone, you know, like if we

Courtney:

really, yeah.

Andrea:

yeah.

Courtney:

the Toni Morrison quote that you reminded me of, um, yBrittney cooper, um, and Brittney of, um, if you can only be tall when someone else is on their knees, it's a serious problem.

Brittney:

That's right.

Courtney:

um, I completely agree. I I looked at the election results. And one of the things that I that really occurred to me is the lack of capacity for the cost of the privilege that they have gained through domination. Because the thing about it, I mean, we, we, you know, we are all share human design. So we feel a certain way about energy. And energy exchange and energy out and how it comes back. And when you, when you gain something from dominance, when you were tall, because people were on their knees, the exchange is a shame and the guilt,

Andrea:

Yeah.

Courtney:

um, of, and the self hatred is as Baldwin was very, you know, kind of consistently showing us that occurs when that is Literally your identity. That is how you identify in the world as someone who was tall because others are on their knees and you're and you're trying to put pride in that you're trying to find a sense of, you know, like Id in the midst of that. And there it's that it's vapid. There's nothing that you can hold on to where you can feel you can be filled with love. You know, and humanity and hope, like we were talking about earlier, while still holding on to this this privilege, this bloody privilege that they have. And so, like, one of the things we said in the first episode is like, it's like, you know, these folks painted themselves in a corner and just decided to commit to the corner, you know, like the, the, the exchanges, yes, you, you can stand tall, but you have to sacrifice so much of what it means to be a, you know, this species that was created with a consciousness.

Andrea:

Right. So much of what it means to be human. Yeah.

Brittney:

And the reason, the reason that they can't do it is because they fear that we will treat them the way they have treated us.

Andrea:

Mm hmm.

Brittney:

That's, that's really, that's really the thing. It's not, it's not, they don't actually believe us when we say that, we, that there's a better way. And that's because their understanding of humanity, the folks who make these kinds of choices, right? Um, is that, you know, the only paradigm is dominance and submission and someone has to be dominant. So when, folks saying, Oh, we could be communal. We could be collective. We could be egalitarian. We could share resources. room in the sky for everyone. The sky is filled with a billion stars, right? They can't, they don't, they don't understand it in that way. And they're like, but surely that's not, surely that's not true. Right. And so the challenge then that I find is then they always almost force you into their paradigm of having to be

Courtney:

Yes.

Brittney:

because in order to get to the communal, you literally have to wrest power out of their hands.

Andrea:

Yeah. Mm.

Brittney:

you know, as a teacher, as a, you know, kind of person who thinks like, you know, relationships really are the core to kind of how I like to move. And as a person who, for instance, like has refused to build my career by trying to be a singular star, like, so this is why.

Courtney:

Yes.

Brittney:

First year out that I became a professor I started, you know, co co founded a feminist collective of other academics and activists because we basically made the decision that we would go together in a project that would reward people for going singularly.

Courtney:

Wow.

Brittney:

Um, and you know, and that and so because that is my sensibility is that collaboration and and collectivity really matter watching people like when you when you can't convince them and you have to fight them and I'm a lover not a fighter in that way, right?

Courtney:

Thank you. I'm listening.

Brittney:

I will. I am much better. Uh, I will fight when people do things to my friends and my loved ones, then I'm fierce. And a lot of the fire that you'll see publicly is the thing you'll get. But in, in my actual self, which is like a Libra moon and a libra in the chart, it's all diplomacy and peacemaking. relationships. Relationships, Right. And balance. It's not that kind of fighter energy. That's not really the mode that I tend to like to move in. So it's really hard for me that it feels like we're going to have to have a battle royale to get these folks to just release enough to see that it actually could be different. And that part of the, you know, this is always why I say like, I'm a black feminist. Cause I think it's black women who understand that. We're not trying to build the world the way that white people have. We're not trying to build the world the way that men do. Like our version of liberation is not to be equal to men or equal to right. Our version of liberation is like, but look at, even if we were equal to you, look at what you have done. Look at this, this, look, look at this, We don't want this. We want, you know, a different mode of being in the world all together. Um, and, you know, and you have to, they have to release enough in order to be able to see that we're not actually trying to get better at their game. We're trying to institute an entirely different mode of relation.

Andrea:

Exactly. An entirely new game, an entirely new game. Well, and what's wild and somewhat ironic is that we all have muscle memory of that game. Right. Right. We have it from, I mean, unfortunately for those with. White body identity. It's maybe 3000 years old, right? Or at least 1500 years old before you can hit that like cellular knowledge of what, what that's like. But even then, we still were in the survival mindset, right? Like, even then you had the feudal system to get before the feudal system, you really do have to go back like,2025. 2, 500 hundred years in Europe. And, um, you don't have, that's why I, like, when I reflect on the fact that we're doing this work on Turtle Island, like, this is probably the landmass that has the most recent memory of living that way. Um, in, in a lot of ways, right, because the illness, right, the supremacy illness that infected Europe, and then they infected each other, and then they infected the world with kind of landed here last, in a lot of ways. And maybe that's why we had to be extra with it and go like so much further. I don't know. I don't know. Um, one of the things that I love that we keep going back to, um, and this gets back to both you and Courtney's design is you both have hope motivation.

Courtney:

and I knew it. I I knew it.

Andrea:

I know, I know, I had this feeling that you were getting an intuitive hit. Um, yes. and so motivation has to do with that, like, um, the way that you see the world. and, um, hope motivation. So for those of you listening who don't know variable hope motivation is part of the four arrows that are at the top of the chart. And there are six different options. Um, and hope it aligns with the second line. Um, and so it is the second line is. All of the characteristics of the second line apply, which is very spiritual, um, very, um, natural. It's not something that you, you know, um, developed for yourself. It just comes to you naturally. Um, But what I love about hope motivation is that the hope anytime you're in true self, the hope is very robust, and it's realistic and it's practical right which is a lot of what I think you describe in the way that you relate to your students and the way that you relate to your audience. Um, and. Helping people see what is possible in any circumstance, not just your most desired circumstance. Right? Because when you are navigating what's possible in an undesirable circumstance, you're actually stretching your resilience and you're stretching your ability to stay the course, which You know, considering how long the system has been in place, we need a lot of that. Like we need a lot of that to be able to, to cut through. So I'm, I'm actually curious, Courtney, what you heard that you of

Courtney:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you said you were you know, like a, like an optimist and, um, a perennial optimist, which I love. I think that's what you said. Um, and. which totally resonated with me. Um, I'm a Leo stellium. I'm a Leo, sun, Leo rising, Leo Mars, Um. um, with uh, cancer mercury and a cancer Venus. So it's like a lot of love, like a lot of hope, a lot of, um, wanting all of us to have the best we can have and, and, Be the best we can be, you know, and that nurturing love. And I, and I feel, I feel that when I interact with your work, I feel, um, especially lately, um, in the messages you've been sharing, um, since the election results and even before like the vulnerability kind of meeting people where they are. and it's, I think what I love, at least what I experienced about help motivation and what I get from you and I interact with your work is, is that it's not, um, it's not a toxic positivity type of ignoring of the problems, like you were saying, it's like, it's looking at possibility in the circumstance. And so I think this also lends to your 6th line. It's like, you have to, we have to be clear about what is. First, you know, and how we got to what is, and really it's the journey of like understanding how we got to what is, at least for myself, where you start to see the glimmers of light, right? You start to see like, okay, this is how we got here. This, this situation was a lot like this situation. This is what humans did during this time to navigate this. We can do this again. or, you know, we have more. Fill in the blank resource than they did then. This is even more possible now. This is, and, and it feels like a really important conversation to have because I know we've talked a lot about the right and Republicans and how they voted, but we also have to contend with the 10 million people who didn't vote. Yeah. You know, we also have to contend with the, with the hopelessness that really came to the fore during, especially the, you know, well, this campaign with Biden and then transferring to Harris, um, with the backdrop of the genocide in Gaza, with the backdrop of, you know, student loans, are they going to be canceled? Are they not? And so people's literally like life plans. Being jerked back and forth by these courts, um, the repeal of, of, um, Roe, um, just really, Like really intense blows to hope that have occurred during this timeframe. Um, there was a, a despair that was growing on the left and a, a sort of nihilism as if to say, like, it doesn't matter what happens next. It's all shit. It's all fucked. It doesn't matter. We're just, you know, we're just going to have to fight, you know, like after the election was like, wipe your tears, get over it. It's time to fight. It's time to come together. And, you know, that hope motivation plus that six line was like, wait a second, you know, like, I think we're missing some parts here. I would love to just hear like, um, First of all, like, how do you support your hope, you know, you talked about exhaustion. So I'd just love to hear you kind of talk through that. But also, um, kind of what have you seen and and how do you see hope being such an important piece of the puzzle for how we move forward from here?

Brittney:

Yeah, um, look, let me be honest in saying what I what I have been saying, which is that I don't know that I'm that I'm centered just yet in my hope and

Courtney:

Mm-Hmm,

Brittney:

and I want people to really like. I've had to learn. I lost my mother last year and it has really been

Courtney:

Oh wow.

Brittney:

Um, you know, it's been terrible. Um, you know, my mother probably was the person who me daily what the discipline of hope looked like and what it means to sort of have limited possibility and yet make a life for yourself that you could come home to and be comfortable in and, you know, and, and be fully yourself. Um, and so, you know, my. My world was really smashed to pieces, uh, with her passing. And I have had to, I am daily figuring out what it looks like to put together a version of myself that can survive this new world without her, her

Courtney:

mm mm-Hmm

Brittney:

share that because I think that, um, we want to rush past the uncomfortable to get to the toxic optimism, the toxic positive kind of hope that doesn't serve us. Um, and a It's lot in my work about joy, which, um, which I learned in the church and which I distinct, distinguish from happiness. And the telling people is that joy is about an internal rootedness, not not about, um, external circumstances going your way. That's happiness, right? Or this scholar, um, late scholar named Lauren Berlin called it cruel optimism, right? That America serves up cruel optimism. Some, you know, this, this. The American dream that always exceeds you, but that apparently you, you can get to, right. And

Courtney:

Mm-Hmm.

Brittney:

this sort of notion of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, right. It's all part of this kind of cruel American optimism that, you know, that limits the life chances of so many people just to give a limited few, the access to that. Right.

Andrea:

Mm-Hmm.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Brittney:

And so, Um, and so I don't have any doubt that I will get back to hope because I, because it is very uncomfortable for me to feel hopeless. I do not like it. And, but I think that what I am doing is searching for what are the actual true compasses that, that, that make me feel hopeful. What are the places where these are safe places and reliable places to anchor, um, to anchor in. And so, um, I spent some time on the weekend like hanging out with a group of college kids who are learning to be organizers and they had such earnest questions and such passion. And I teach college kids and they are really like trying to make sense of this moment and trying to understand. And so I always feel hopeful with them.

Andrea:

Um, mm-Hmm.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And I,

Brittney:

And I always feel hopeful, you know, the other thing that I, I think is that this is going to be the moment where the quality of our relationships will determine how well we do. Um, and so

Courtney:

yes,

Brittney:

like friendship is a way of life and a love language for me. Um, I have lots of friends. Um, I deeply invest in my friendships. Um, we make time for each other and we show up for each other. And that's kind of a daily practice. Um, so I think it's going to be about the kind of small connected gathering the ability to really be in deep community with people. And frankly, I think that's that it's going to have to go back to being a bit analog. I think that some of the yelling with each other on the Internet is not helpful

Andrea:

Absolutely.

Brittney:

not because it's not accountable. Right. Um, because we, we get to just say whatever we want to say to people and then we don't have to deal with the fallout or the consequences of, of, of the ways that we have talked to folks.

Courtney:

Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Brittney:

so um, those are the things that make me feel hopeful, uh, are my relationships and I think about like, um, I'm an only child. And so when my mom passed, you know, I've lived far away from my family for many years, really, since I went away to college. When my mom passed away, all of my friends descended on our house, um, in Louisiana and, you know, most of my family members, my mother knew these people, but my rest of my family did not. And so they were just like, who are all these people and where they come and I was like, Oh no, I roll with an army. Like I've got people, They show up, um, in these moments of grief, it's the same thing, right. You know, my people I've been trying to show up, um, and they've been showing up and. That's the, that's the way that I support my own hope. And I, you know, and also just getting rid of the, like, I mean, to your point, like just telling people that I feel tired or I feel exhausted or I'm not there today, or I don't have it all figured out, or I don't have language for this moment. Um, I was going to say the other thing, it's so interesting that you say, like, there's a deep need to sort of understand how we got here because I would say that the like primary method of my work, um, and probably my emotional life is always genealogy. Like, I always having

Courtney:

hmm.

Brittney:

find the origin story for any particular thing. Like, where did this begin, right? And so any book I write, it's always an origins tale, you know?

Courtney:

Mm hmm.

Brittney:

Even the book I'm doing now when I'm like trying to diagnose like some of the challenges and the ways that we relate to each other across all of these movements and and so it's funny to hear you say That because I was like, oh, yeah, I absolutely went back to an origins tale because it's the only thing That I know to like tell the story, um, and what's been fun, what I've been working on in the work this week is just like, and then what happened, the thing about the origins tale, though, that it's really lovely and that is hopeful is there may be the way that the story went, but the way that you tell it also offers you some agency in terms of what it will mean for you.

Andrea:

Totally.

Courtney:

I love that.

Brittney:

So you keep on getting to, like, retell your origin story. So I was thinking about an origin story that I told in Eloquent Rage, and I called my agent up this morning and I was like, I need to tell this story again in my new book. Is that, like, okay for me to do? she was like, of course it is, because I was like, I need to retell it, but now I need to tell it this other way, right?

Andrea:

Mm.

Brittney:

Telling it this way, like serves the person that I am now. And so I think that some of the work we can do together in community, um, even when we come together and we keep being like, what happened here? Where did it come from?

Courtney:

Mm hmm.

Brittney:

Why, why did the people do this? What is the the reason? And so one day you tell it and you're like, oh, I think about their emotional motivation or another day you tell it. Like I think about their muscle memory and another day that you tell it, you're like, well, I think about this set of political circumstances and all of that retelling of the story is the thing that like puts us back together again.

Andrea:

Hmm. Yeah. I love that one. I'm like, of course, human chart. And I'm like, of course, you, you have the, um, you have this channel that, um, it's the, the 64/47. So it connects the crown to the Ajna. Um, and you have two channels that connect the crown to the Ajna. Um, but the 64/47 is that. Getting to the roots. That is the understanding the past so that we can make the best moves going forward or we can make the best moves in the present moment. But then you also have the 63/4. So you're 64 is your unconscious sun, which is like the second most important part of your chart, because it is what brings light into your physical form, where the sun is on your unconscious side. Um, and then the 63/4, which is knowing the future. That's the other channel. Is like being able to dream in to where we need to go. Um, the 63 is your unconscious earth because the 63 and 64 are opposite each other on the wheel. So anytime the sun is in one, the earth is in the other and vice versa. And then, um, the four is your unconscious north node, which the, North node is, you know, where we're moving into, like where, where we're dreaming into. So it's like kind of extra emphasis on this, um, needing to understand the future, needing to understand where we need to go. Um, and that's also like your, where you need to go, like personally, you know, so it's kind of this, um, doubling up or like reinforcement of that. Dynamic in, but it's also unconscious. Like all of this is on the unconscious side. So it's, it's not like something you are aware that you're doing. Um, it's just how you be and the way that you, you know, untangle things when, um, you're living day to day.

Brittney:

I love that

Andrea:

So cool.

Courtney:

Mm. Like a time bender.

Andrea:

Totally.

Brittney:

I mean, that's the next book I'm doing. I'm doing a book now. Um, that's called how to love a feminist. And it's all about relationality. And the then I'm The next book I'm doing is a book on time because I have this TED talk about the racial politics of time and then I'm gonna and who owns it and,

Courtney:

I love this so much.

Brittney:

and I'll have like, you know, I'm trying to like a sort of get to a black feminist theory of time and so that's the next words.

Courtney:

wow.

Brittney:

have to, we have to get our relationships together and get

Courtney:

me to really appreciate this take. Like I, I, um, I covered the 2020 election and with, um, a outlet called Scalawag magazine. I don't know if you're familiar.

Brittney:

Yeah.

Courtney:

Yeah. Um, that was a transformational experience. Um, that was like the first time I've ever like, You know, like actually covered an election and, um, got to go on, uh, like WNC, like, uh, Frank Stasio's show and, and talk about some stuff about like election security and like, you know, all this stuff. It was fun. It was a fun, I'll never do it again in my life, but it was a really amazing opportunity. And, um, that is. Like something that really stuck out to me and sticks out to me. The difference between these two moments is relationships. I feel like there's something, and particularly one thing that I see is when we had two white men competing for this prize, everything happened in a much more like almost objective type of space. Like, it was just like an app. It was like an apples to apples. This person said this thing. This person says this thing. Um, like, we don't want that. We do want this kind of, um, one to one that was going on. I mean, there was, it was still heated. There was still, I mean, it was COVID. There was still so much to worry about. But it felt so like relationally clear and there was a camaraderie. I know one of the things that I loved, um, writing about was the ways that we were feeding each other, you know, um, like folks being fed in line waiting, you know, to vote and that kind of thing. Flash 2024.

Andrea:

Which right away to be able to do that.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

They literally a law in Georgia that you couldn't bring to polling stations.

Courtney:

Yeah. same in North Carolina as well. And, but in 2024, seeing a black woman in the space, you know, especially the last hundred days, um, there was something very emotional that occurred. in terms of our connectivity toward each other. Um, I mean, you obviously have like the news and how they cover things. We exposed out the misogynoir that I think we all have, like, you know, that is in the water that we all swim in really came to the surface. It was Like, I, I feel like a lot of the time I was taking in a lot of, I, I unfollowed a lot of people during this time because the takes were so laden with, um, a self loathing, um, a self distrust, um, the, the distrust. It makes me think about, um, Audre Lorde's and Sister Outsider, the last essay about black women and how we relate to one another, um, and which. Like knocked me on my ass, just the, the vulnerability and like, it's almost like the, the cry of that. Like, it feels like she sobbed over this, you know, um, that's what it felt like. And it was really one of those. I have a lot of collective circuitry in human design. So this is, and also all that, you know, cancer shit I was talking about earlier. I'm just a very sensitive girl. Okay. She's sensitive. And, um, and it really like grief, it really broke my heart. It got to the point where I was like, I gotta get, I gotta get away from social media. Like you were saying, the lack of accountability to each other that was happening, um, with the people who understand the value of relationships most, which I do believe black women understand objectively, the value, like the, The need of relationships for the survival better than most. Um, and, and so I, I love to hear like how you came to wanna write like how to love a black feminist, like and what was going on through your mind and heart. Um, as you're writing this book during this season during this moment in history.

Brittney:

Yeah, I mean, it's exactly the things you talk about, which is, um, I, I'm just deeply grieved by the, the way that we're just, we, we're ripping each other to shreds, um, all in search of this kind of moral purity, this kind of political purity. And I have been, you know, asking this question in all my group chats, which is, what is the thing that matters more to you in feminism? Is it right politics or right relationships? Um, Because I, because I have seen a feminism where people say all the right things and they take all the right positions, but they treat each other terribly. Right. And in fact, sometimes they treat each other terribly in service of right positions. And I'm talking about something that is not so easily quantified in terms of, um, morality because I'm not suggesting that we get to be raggedy and to not you you know, and to take a, you know, sort of politically repugnant positions, right? But I am suggesting that we're living in our politics in a moment that doesn't allow us to actually be in process about things that doesn't actually allow us to think through, and I, and what I said to one of my friends who I think is farther to the left than me on some things is I was like, look, I'm always going to choose the freedom side. You can count on me to show up to the protest, you can count on me to, to show up to the, the, the, the, the just concerns, but, but I was like, but I'm also like the benefit of being over 40 is I'm like, look, I'm also a church girl from a small town in Louisiana. And sometimes my country girl shit just comes out. And sometimes my old church mother just comes out. Um, and so sometimes the like the all of the newfangled like sort of performances of a kind of radicalism, I don't always do that well and it's not because I don't read it's not because I don't understand the argument. But what I mean by that is so like when I looked at the election and I saw the way that we were for instance. each other to shreds and black women were ripping each other to shreds about Palestine in particular. And I thought to myself, like, I'm out here supporting our students at their encampment. I'm, you know, supporting them in real and material ways because, you know, genocide is a dividing line, right? And it

Courtney:

Yes. Yes.

Brittney:

right? And at the same time, I am like, it's still a black girl running for president and that, that means certain things, and it, it means certain things both in terms of, it's not any old black girl, you know, she's not Condoleezza Rice, like, you know, it's

Courtney:

Listen, Omorosa.

Brittney:

I mean, that part, right, not Candace O, you know, like, the idea that Black women can't make distinctions between Black women who are for us and Black women who are not for us seemed to me to be a real, um, a real misunderstanding of Black women's own complexity and sophistication and deeply internalized misogynoir. And so I just didn't take well to the kind of purity politics that people were trying to to impose and the demand from the radical left that Black women, like, vote against themselves, that we see even to like identify with Kamala or be excited for her or have any connection to her. Like I, you know, I was like, I deeply disagree with her on this topic. And I, you know, want her to stop talking about being the country's most lethal fighting force. Like, please stop saying that shit, right? At the same time, I'm like, that's a, that's a black girl with an Asian mama who went to Howard, who had. I have a track record of trying to serve Black communities and bring us into rooms and that mattered to me. And, and, and, and what I have learned in my couple of decades in feminist politics is that there is a way that we will, if we're not careful, let the language and the frameworks of radicalism stand in for the emotional work that we're running from.

Andrea:

mm

Brittney:

You can say all the right shit, you can take all the right positions, and sometimes you are using that to cloak your jealousy, your competition, your insecurity, your unfulfilled ambitions, right? And so, you want to be a, so for instance, you want to be like, if we think about it in a projector sense, you want the invitations, you want the

Courtney:

hmm.

Brittney:

Your angst is that you are not being seen, but sitting with the truth of that for you, you just get mad at all the other people who have the invitations and you about the ways that they're illegitimate, the ways that they are sort of, you know, trying to shore up or reproduce problematic systems. And, interestingly enough, all that chatter goes away. The moment that you begin to get the invitations, right? Because. Really? You are worried that you're being unseen left behind that your own work isn't being valued. Uh, and I don't like, um, listen, I have ambitions just like the rest of them. And I'm a projector. So I want to, you know, I want invitations and I want to be, you know, seen and appreciated for the work that I do for sure. But I never want in the moments where I have felt Like overlooked or unseen. Those are moments when I try, not always perfectly of course, but I try to like check my own self before I like dump that shit on to other people and say that the problem, you know, the problem is with them when really they're just adjustments to be made or the timing isn't right yet or the conditions need to shift, right? And so, um, that, that's the, you know, that's the thing is that I, you know, I, I came to trying to write this book in part inspired by Audre Lorde's"Eye to Eye," but also But also, for sure, um, but also thinking about, you know, more than a decade of, like, digital feminisms and the the way the digital has, like, set us at odds because it offers platform over connection, right? It offers fame, it offers celebrity, it offers visibility, and people then start trying to protect turf rather than like picking up, picking up the phone and having a phone call with each other.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Brittney:

and I wanted to, you know, say to people over and over and over again, it, it might not be the most sophisticated take on feminism. I mean, you know, I'm a whole feminist theorist, but at the end of the day, my feminist politics are do you love women? And do you ride for them? And how can I see that in your life, in your friendships, in your relationships, in the policy positions that you choose, in the way that you move? Not in, are we all arriving at the same point, you know, where we need to be on any particular issue at any given moment, right? Is a black woman who says, I don't support genocide and yet I think that there are real pressing matters that are going to happen to Black communities if this election goes the wrong way.

Courtney:

Right,

Brittney:

Is that a person who deserves to be jettisoned for not being radical enough? Because I think that we're now, given how it has gone, about to see what that woman is made of and just how essential she is to our ability to survive the coming onslaught.

Andrea:

Right. Right. Exactly.

Courtney:

All of that. All of that. Wow.

Andrea:

Yeah. I mean, everything you described is really the not-self, right? It's, it's the deconditioning process that is required and, you know, human design offers one framework for that. Deconditioning work. It's a pretty like precise and mind blowing framework. Um, but it's not the only way, you know, um, and ultimately what you described, like that not-self projector who is putting other people down to try to get recognition for themselves. It's only going to beget more not-self. Like you can get not-self from not-self. You can't get the true success. That is your because that success is really impacting other people's lives. Like what we want as projectors, like what we really, our signature is that feeling that we have impacted someone. That is what true success is. It's not all of the stuff that white supremacist capitalism says it is, you know? And, um, what you're describing to me, I mean, I just, I, this quote from Audre Lorde is like, Up for me in almost every single conversation I ever have, but basically that the master's tools will never dismantle the master's home. Like we can't use these tools of violence on each other and expect to get a different outcome. Right. And that's the reason why I think the not-self true self is so, um, succinct and simple, but also very challenging to stay present to because it is not. One of the master's tools. In fact, it is one of the tools that's going to help dismantle the house because it doesn't, it doesn't abide by anything but your soul. Like it really, it doesn't answer to anything but your own energy. And so, um, I see the way you were bringing these concepts of like, We've got to get out of the way we have been cultured and conditioned to think about ourselves and to think about each other in order to ever have a hope of realizing that dream of where we want to go.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Brittney:

You know, I have the, you know, the, the HD framework has been so helpful, um, really in the post eloquent rage moment in the post eloquent rage moment. I've had to like slow down a lot. I mean, um, you know, the level of pace that I had in my career in the run up to eloquent rage was really unsustainable. And I was starting all of the ways that it was unsustainable. The day after I finished the last stop on my book tour for Eloquent Rage, I woke up and the room was spinning and I had about six months of terrible vertigo and had to go to, um, had to go to physical therapy. And because every time I laid down, the room would spin. Now I could work, I could move, I could travel, I could drive, but I literally could not rest in my own bed without the room spinning.

Andrea:

Wow.

Courtney:

Wow. Wow. That's layered.

Brittney:

Yeah, yeah. It's like my body was just like, we don't even know how to rest anymore. What is this resting that you're attempting?

Courtney:

Incredible.

Andrea:

and you were, I mean, you were, Like on the roof at that point, right? Like you were 37 ish.

Brittney:

yeah, yeah, that's right.

Andrea:

Yeah. So, um,

Brittney:

yeah,

Andrea:

that's, that is like such a metaphor to me of what happens when we don't listen to that internal Knowing, right? Like the body will just lay your ass out like It'll say, oh, you're not gonna treat me. Right. Well,

Brittney:

that's right.

Andrea:

We'll about that.

Brittney:

That's right. And so, you know, so I had to learn I mean, and I and I think that because I had so much, you know, so deeply wanted, you know, recognition and so many things for the book and the project and all of that. um, i, you know, I just thought that like if the recognition wasn't coming or the career wasn't at the place that it needed to be that I just need to grind harder right I just need to work. to work. And so that was, know, I was just like, oh, that was an, and it was interesting because I thought of that as like, um, Oh, this is the way that you remain humble. Right. Is like, I'd entitled to it. I just have to, I just have to work harder. Right. I I just Right. Um, and it has, so this, you know, in the last year or so I've been telling my friends, I was like, Oh, I'm no longer in my humble era right?

Courtney:

Hell yeah. Hell yes.

Brittney:

And I, and I think that some of that has been helped along by the permission that human design has given me to like actually see and witness my own self first. um, and, and it was like, and it was like a real deep spiritual lesson for me because there was like a, Like an interview that I gave a few years ago that it wasn't that it was that I said anything wrong. It was that I said something reckless and it became like a public controversy and I just needed to be more careful with my words. Right. Um, because you know, there's a target on all of us who do particularly kind of work.

Andrea:

Yeah.

Brittney:

And I was reflecting on the fallout from that, you know, I just very clearly, you know, heard my ancestors and spirit like sort of say to me like, Hey, this is happening because you refuse to acknowledge your own power, because you refuse to recognize that when you talk, other people listen. Um, And you think that because you don't have particular accolades, um, and particular kind of, um, recognitions in your career as yet, that you have no power and that you still have something to prove and that you still need to be on the grind. And the refusal to see who you actually are in the world is causing you to exercise less care about the gifts that you have.

Andrea:

Hmm. um,

Brittney:

and the impact that you're supposed to make. And so you have to see it first, whenever others see it, they will see it, but you have to see it first. And you have to move like a person who has the level of like calling, um, you know, training, um, insight, whatever that is like, you have to see it first. And it isn't about, um, Not being humble, it is about the fact that your attempts to be humble meant that then you actually didn't treat what you brought to the table with the level of value. So you were invitations that were not the right ones that are not are in your life. You know? And so that language around both sight and invitation, um, has been, um, Has been super essential for me and how I'm moving now. And I look, I do find it hard. I, you know, you come of working class, grind and hustle. If you want to have something is the language that you were taught.

Courtney:

Yeah, totally.

Brittney:

and it, and it dovetails really nicely with Christian theology and it dovetails really nicely with like neoliberalism, right, which says like anything you want, you, you have to get it through your own personal ingenuity. And like our governments, the way we build the world, none of that owes you anything. It's all on you. And so, and that certainly also makes you can, it can make you feel like this is the place of my deepest control. And so sometimes like I'll reflect on our reading when I'm like, I need to take this nap or like, I need to, I need to rest. I need to slow down now. I have 50 million things. But like, I, so I'm fighting the like thing in myself that's like, you're being lazy and you're like, you got to get out, right? Um, my body is literally like, we need far more rest I ever thought I could need. some some way to recover from all of the years of that intense grind.

Courtney:

Yes. Yes. Anyone That really is really making me think, I mean, cause I'm, you know, you're a projector, you have no, you have no energy, the divine energy centers. So I'm just like envisioning like, like you sharing with us, which I'm so grateful that you did, that like, You saying like, you felt like your body forgot how to rest. You're going so hard. Like, that makes so much sense. Not only from a sense that, you know, you have these, uh, open energy centers, so you're not generating your own, you know, but also open centers and the influence of. Everything around you, like and you talking about these systems and these societal narratives that have informed those open places in your design and literally confusing the information that your body is needing to take care of itself, um, that overwhelm. And just like, also I've been thinking a lot as you, I know we're getting late on time, but something that keeps on coming up over and over in the conversation is this idea of scope, this idea of like, there's not an action too small, you know, there's not too few eyes on you. There's no such thing as like, you know, like you are, um, making the impact that you are here to make the eyes that find you are the ones that are supposed to find you. And so the only, but the only thing you have control over is we've been talking about Andrea is like following your design. Like, you know, like in being in your experiment, like you said, paying attention to yourself, um, allowing yourself the, the. time and attention to understand your needs, your desires. It's really giving very much Mars and Leo, like very much like you, we are all lead. We are all leaders at the very least, we're all leaders of self. You know, my Mars and Leo is in my first house, but we also, we are here to lead in certain ways and to trust that that's just an innate mantle that we all have and, um, believing it like really, really letting it inform your deepest understanding of yourself. Um, that just reverberates to, I think everything you've talked about from relationships to, you know, future building, all of those things. Like, um, this has been one of the most um, Nourishing, affirming conversations I've had in a long time. And I talked to Andrea a lot. So that just goes to show you what like the floor is for like level of incredible conversations. And this has been just, I mean, I have chills head to toe. Thank you so much for spending this time with us. Um, and just sharing so freely with us here.

Brittney:

Yeah. Thank y'all for all your work and just for making this framework more accessible for folks. Um, I've made, since I've learned of human design, um, I have made every collective, all the members of the Crunk Feminist Collective know their human design. Every member of every collective I'm in, you know, I'm like, we've listened. It's like, I gotta know, you know, this helpful to us as a, as a group.

Courtney:

Yes.

Brittney:

they're all like, here she goes again with her personality test and her assessments and her whatever. But I really live for it. So it

Andrea:

so awesome.

Brittney:

be there for my people. Yeah.

Andrea:

Yay. And we have some we have some exciting things in the works. Um, we've been scheming about how to create. A digital way for people to learn, but also have the option to join us live. And that's going to be coming in January. So, yeah. So just like I, what Courtney and I both desire is. The tool in a liberation lens in a way that helps people feel more themselves like quickly and understand the purpose of it and, um, how it can support them. So I'm just so grateful that our paths cross anytime I get like dystopian about social media, I'm like, yeah, but I met Dr. Cooper on there. I met Courtney on there. Like it, you know, like I'm just going to focus on the things that, you know, Really do work about it and really try to like shape my, um, interactions with it. it Uh, so that I can get more of that without the yelling and the not-self and all the, all the other stuff that's also existing out there.

Brittney:

I love that.

Courtney:

Yeah. you.

Andrea:

Thank you for being here. Thank you. And keep us posted on this book. Thank you to our listeners for staying with us during this interview. And please, please, please find Britney at Professor Crunk on Instagram. And, um, man, do you have so many great interviews that have come out over the last three, four months? Like every time an interview comes out, I'm like, yay, recognition.

Courtney:

Yes, highly recommend a Dr. Brittney, just rabbit trail, just one night, lift your spirits. You'll learn a lot and, um, you'll, you'll actually feel better, which not a lot of people do well, you know, they don't inform and encourage the same time. so Um, such a, such a blessing.

Brittney:

Appreciate you.

Courtney:

All right. Now.

Courtney Napier:

Thank you so much for tuning into HD and Liberation podcast. We hope you've gained valuable insights into human design and its role in building a life of peace, success, satisfaction, and wonder. If you've enjoyed this episode, please show your support by liking, following, and sharing our podcast. on YouTube, or your favorite podcast platform. Your engagement helps us reach more people who can benefit from this wisdom. For exclusive content and to join our thriving community, consider becoming a Patreon member. Your support allows us to continue exploring the depths of human design and its potential for life and community transformation. Stay tuned for more fun, thoughtful, and impacting discussions. Together, we're unlocking the path to a more liberated and authentic life. Thank you for being a part of HD and Liberation Podcast.

People on this episode

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Andrea Ward Berg

Co-host
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Courtney Napier

Co-host
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Dr. Brittney Cooper

Guest