HDxLiberation: A Human Design Podcast

Episode 14: From Fear to Freedom: Navigating Spiritual Trauma and Liberation

• Courtney Napier, Andrea Ward Berg • Season 1 • Episode 14

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In this thought-provoking episode of the HDxLiberation podcast, hosts Andrea and Courtney delve into the complex intersection of spiritual fears and ancestral trauma. They explore how historical events and cultural conditioning have shaped contemporary attitudes towards spirituality, particularly focusing on the impact of Romanized Christianity on indigenous spiritual practices in Western Europe and beyond.

The conversation begins with personal anecdotes about Mother's Day gifts, setting a warm and relatable tone. Andrea introduces the main topic, inspired by recent online attacks on spiritual practitioners, and names it "Spiritual Fears." The hosts discuss the violent history of religious conversion in Western Europe, the systemic persecution of women and indigenous spiritual practices, and the deep-seated fears that have been passed down through generations.

Courtney shares her personal journey of reconciling her Christian upbringing with her curiosity about other spiritual practices, including her experience with a Hoodoo tarot deck. The hosts emphasize the importance of understanding and honoring one's ancestral history to foster self-compassion, healing, and liberation.

Throughout the episode, Andrea and Courtney encourage listeners to trust their curiosity and follow their strategy and authority, as outlined in human design principles. They highlight the significance of learning and witnessing as tools for breaking free from the cycles of fear and trauma that have been perpetuated for centuries.


Key Takeaways:

  • The historical context of spiritual fears and their roots in Romanized Christianity.
  • The systemic persecution of women and indigenous spiritual practices in Western Europe.
  • The importance of understanding and honoring ancestral history for personal and collective healing.
  • Encouragement to trust one's curiosity and follow human design principles to navigate spiritual fears.


Notable Quotes:

  • "It's perfectly normal to have fear around these modalities. Like it is a healthy response to the trauma that our lineage has experienced." - Andrea
  • "Knowing our history, knowing our ancestry is power." - Andrea
  • "My six line kept me from feeling like I was the problem." - Courtney
  • "The storytelling changed, but the stories didn't." - Courtney

Resources:

Watch the video recordings of HDxLiberation Podcast here!

Join the HDxLiberation Community on Patreon!


Contact and Support:

For more insights and to join the conversation, follow the HDxLiberation podcast on social media at @hdxliberation on Instagram, subscribe to their YouTube channel, and join the Liberation Lab on Substack for exclusive content and community benefits.

Hi, I'm Andrea. Hey y'all, this is Courtney and welcome to the Human Design and Liberation podcast. This is a space where we explore how human design and liberation theology intersect with the past, present, and future. With the intent of sharing the beauty and pain of the human experience to encourage you in your liberation journey.

Andrea:

Hello, how are you?

Courtney:

I'm good. I'm good. How are you?

Andrea:

I'm good. I'm excited to be here.

Courtney:

You see my mother's day present. One of them.

Andrea:

So sweet.

Courtney:

Baby girl made a little bracelet for me. Yeah. Mother's Day was good.

Andrea:

Yeah,

Courtney:

How was yours?

Andrea:

It was good. Arthur made me a fairy house.

Courtney:

Oh, precious. It's

Andrea:

so cute.

Courtney:

I need pictures of that.

Andrea:

I'll send you pictures. It's adorable. Yes. Amongst other things that they both made at school. So it's very

Courtney:

Yes. I

Andrea:

Very, very cute.

Courtney:

Love the school gifts. Always adorable.

Andrea:

So I'm excited about today.

Courtney:

Me too. Me too. Yeah. Like, like lead us in cause this came from your brain even though, you know, like as soon as you said it, it's like, bing, bing, bing, bing, bing.

Andrea:

Yeah. Yeah, I think it was a spleenic hit. Um, so what we're talking about today, I'm kind of, I'm naming it spiritual fears with air quotes. Um, cause that's like the best way I can think to describe.

Courtney:

It's a good name.

Andrea:

So, um, it's really been up for me mainly because, um, I've seen a couple of, practitioners.

Courtney:

Mm-Hmm.

Andrea:

Um, pretty violently attacked recently online.

Courtney:

wow.

Andrea:

Yeah, mainly I'm thinking of, um, woman that I follow who's an herbalist, Olivia is her name and her brand is Organic Olivia. Um, and she, um, is an herbalist and so very much related to the things that we're talking about. Um, we'll get into like how herbalism is, um, interrelated. but, um, essentially, yeah, they, she had a podcast episode with, um, a woman who works in healing, um, some divination. She has been trained in a West African, um, modality, which I don't necessarily feel qualified to comment on, although I will say it was a little bit of a red flag for me because she's white.

Courtney:

Ah.

Andrea:

But I did see some Black identifying people in the comments saying like, okay, at first, this was a red flag for me, but I can see where this is being done with authenticity and with, you know, um,

Courtney:

honoring

Andrea:

yeah, honoring the tradition and truly like this woman was trained and it is like, she feels called. And so it wasn't, it's it's not performative in any way, that sort of Right. Um, so, Yeah, i, I felt better having read those comments because those were the exact thoughts that I was having through my mind. Um, which is part of why I was even in the comments, but I was like shocked to see all of the like, you're going to hell comments. comments. Like, oh oh, Lord have mercy. Um, and I think that, um, There was certainly something deep within me that was triggered at seeing those comments.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Um, and I know that this is something that you and I have talked about in the past, like in our conversations. We have, I don't think we've talked about on the pod before, but, um, just, um, this, these spiritual fears.

Courtney:

Yeah, absolutely.

Andrea:

very real, very real spiritual fears. So yeah, that's where, that's why I was like, I had been wanting to make a YouTube video for it like years ago. Um, obviously that was not the place to do it. I mean, this will be a YouTube video too, so it's fine. Um, Um, but, um,

Courtney:

there you go. Two for one.

Andrea:

yeah, this is perfect. This is why it was meant to happen here. And I can't wait to like your thoughts and how it's shown up for you.

Courtney:

Yes. I see. This is so funny because before we started recording, I'm like, okay, I understand, but I'm like, I just know I gotta be in it. Like, it gotta be recording. Like we got to have the lights on, like it's gotta be in it. And then I'll feel it and know what's going on. And as soon as you said what you said, it reminded me of something that happened years ago. Um, and it was a extended family member. Um, making some commentary around like voodoo and it was a, it was a family member making commentary about like, uh, like, you know, basically like saying the word voodoo is like a connotation that is evil, that it's bad. It's satanic. There's something wrong with it. It just, the word itself has been morphed into this boogeyman, like scary thing. And I know how deeply these individuals love, love a Chronicles of Narnia, they love a Lord of the Rings, they love, you know, and we're dealing with fictional, but rooted in some like real kind of cultural traditions. Um, witchcraft,

Andrea:

Mm

Courtney:

you know, um, and how acceptable that is to as a, as a tool for learning as a tool for like understanding. And then also, you know, coming from like an evangelical kind of, um, charismatic Christian background, you know, speaking in tongues, laying on of hands, signs, wonders, and miracles, um, even sacraments and that kind of thing can get into all very mystical, mysterious things, you know, but I instantly saw like the white magic, Black magic moment, right? Where like, Oh, this is good and fun and cute. And, um, culturally like acceptable, but magic whose origins are from Black and brown peoples were automatically labeled as dangerous, unacceptable, demonic, destructive, um, malicious. And that was kind of before I even was going too deeply into my own relationship with all of that, like my spirit. But in that social moment, I was like, this isn't right. This is, this is, this is what, you know, um, white supremacist delusion looks like, you know, like this is a perfect example of white supremacist delusion when you can believe deeply in magic. You can work with magic, quote unquote, work with spiritual things that you don't fully understand, but you fully embrace because of the true impact it's had on your body and your life. But someone else's version of that, especially when it's not Of European origin

Andrea:

Yeah.

Courtney:

is instantaneously labeled

Andrea:

Voodoo.

Courtney:

wrong and and scary, you know, which is You know, we'll get into all of that is automatically a negative thing. And, and so, um, yeah, that's really, really such a, I really appreciate this conversation, like us having it because a lot of us are you know, a lot, a lot. It's still a big conversation. It's a big struggle. Um, yeah, I don't know if I want to launch into another story right yet, but I do have one for later.

Andrea:

I'm excited for them because,

Courtney:

Mm

Andrea:

you know What I think, um, what I think I want to like lead in with is that Um, this is a shared experience

Courtney:

hmm. Mm

Andrea:

and as we get into the roots of where this comes from, I think that our listeners will start to put things together that they've never put together before. I'm chilling on that.

Courtney:

Um,

Andrea:

and, um, this is, this is part of my life's work. I've, I've literally been on this trip. I'm really chilling on that. Like, I don't know if you can see the

Courtney:

I can. Oh my God. I can.

Andrea:

Yeah. Um, so for me personally, for me personally, um, I have like a family background, um, of the consequences of this harm. Um, and I'm not going to get into of that. that, but as a result, um, I was reading things like conversations with God when I was in high school. Um,

Courtney:

Oh,

Andrea:

I was reading, um, the Celestine prophecy. I was reading these esoteric books because of this family stuff. So, um, I was doing that at the same time that I was attending a Christian youth group. Neither of my parents are practicing Christians. So that created its own tension. Um, you know, very, uh, first phase six line type of things.

video1928636783:

Yeah.

Courtney:

Yes.

Andrea:

Um, so, That's really kind of been, um, a fuel for me throughout my whole lived experience. Um, and the more I have allowed myself to dive into the origins, the closer I have felt to god. The I have felt to the divine. Um, and. The more sense I've been able to make out of how we've gotten where we are now, which is allowing me to kind of see a way out. And I think that's kind of the disclaimer I want to give is that wherever you are in the process, learning a little bit more is going to help you be able to see your way out.

Courtney:

Yeah. yeah, absolutely. I'm, yeah, um, Yes. Period. So many feelings. I'm just having a lot of feelings right now. I think that's what it is. It's like I'm having a lot of feelings.

Andrea:

What are you feeling?

Courtney:

I'm feeling, um, vulnerable because I'm feeling so seen, you know, like I, I feel so connected to you in a lot of ways. and this in particular, like feeling the desire to seek, um, about deeper truths. It's based on, you don't even really know what it's fully based on at first. It's just like this hunger, like a very primal need for a more, a broader, stronger, uh, truth container. Um, then the one that's funny, I have a, the

Andrea:

The video just gave her a thumbs up. If

Courtney:

video, the video was doing funny things. That's

Andrea:

not going to make sense.

Courtney:

not make any sense all, but, but a bigger, stronger truth container than what I was given,

Andrea:

you know, that, sounds very six line to me, you know?

Courtney:

Right. It's like, this ain't it. This is not cutting it. I am dangling outside of it. That's what it felt like. You know, I'm, I'm dangling out of outside of this theology.

Andrea:

You were, you know, we were.

Courtney:

I absolutely was. And I felt it. And it was just like, But I, what I love about the six line that we both share is that the six line kept me in a, for some reason, it kept me from feeling like I was the problem, know, or maybe that's where I am now, because I think in this first 30 years, I did feel very much like the problem that the container wasn't the problem. I was a problem. And I think now, you know, On the roof. I can say very confidently that the container was the problem. I was never a problem. I was never a problem in the eyes of my Creator at all. Like

Andrea:

mm.

Courtney:

no surprises,

Andrea:

You were never anything but a gift.

Courtney:

Absolutely. Absolutely. So that's, I love that. So that's what I know now. So that's, that's, that's what I'm feeling. I'm like going back to that, like, that first phase of, I'm feeling that like dangling that very, very insecure feeling spiritually.

Andrea:

Mm.

Courtney:

Um, and unsatisfied too. just

Andrea:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it'd be interesting to dive into where. at least in recent history where, where we can see the, the, the separation starting from religion and spirituality, so to say, or like religion and, um, earth based practices, like I would include astrology in an earth based practice. Um, and, um, it's, actually, it's really. Incredible and a testament, I think, to, um, the modalities, how they have withstood the, violence and trauma that, um, is a part of the story. Um, so,

Courtney:

Yes, one hundred percent.

Andrea:

So for anyone listening who is noticing some discomfort or like, um, anxiety come up around this topic, I just want to Witness you and there's nothing wrong with that. I think that is a very normal response. Um, and just to trust your curiosity and your strategy and authority, take what resonates, leave the rest, like, just know that you are in your own process and try not to compare how you are feeling now to To how I'm feeling now or how Courtney's feeling now. Right. Like, I mentioned, this is a life's work for me. So like, you know, I think this process started for me around like eight or nine years old. And so I'm 45 now. So, you know, I've got 35 ish years of work on this stuff that I've been doing. Um, that's led me to this point. And so, um, But and also I do think that knowing our history, knowing our ancestry is power and it really gives so much space for compassion and for healing and for witnessing. and that is really what is allowed supremacy delusion to continue is the lack of witnessing the lack of compassion. And so if we can bring that back in only that, then I think we're going to see massive shifts.

Courtney:

Oh yeah, for sure. 100%. 100%. Mm hmm. So yeah, so we're jumping into, like, how did we get here? How did we get here? How did we get like, how like, how did we get to, this feeling of, of a fork in the road when it comes to wanting to embrace a more to not, I don't want to say traditional because it's not, but I'm more like, yes. Yes. Yes. A very kind of strictly, um, just say a non natural.

Andrea:

Yes, it is not natural. It's a very mental, it's a very mental process, right? Yeah.

Courtney:

Yeah. Process of faith in and religion, which Is a whole thing like this whole like knowledge is, you know, um, like the monks and everything were very much like the pursuit of knowledge is a spiritual pursuit. Absolutely. So that idea and the animist, uh, uh, earth centric forms of worship and spiritual practice, like how did that become an either or?

Andrea:

Yeah. Um, so we know is that up until let's say about 400 AD, um, they were not either or anywhere. Um, and in many places, After 400 AD, they were still not either or. Um, but what happened around, you know, I mean, obviously this is, we're talking about the story of the losers.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

So it's very challenging to find accurate representation of how they lost.

Courtney:

Yeah, that's true.

Andrea:

We know how the winners won, but we don't know how the losers lost. So who are the losers? The losers are the Celts and the Nords and the Vikings, all of these, um, animist and earth based spiritual practices, they were religions that existed prior to Romanized Catholicism, um, or Romanized Christianity. And what I mean by Romanized Christianity is because between when Jesus lived and Rome adopted Christianity, there was an ethos and a culture within Christianity that was very specific that changed after Rome adopted it. Um, and we know this based on, you know, a lot of the writings that are left. Like, for example, um, the fact that we celebrate Sunday is A Roman adaptation to Western culture. That was their day of celebrating the sun, like the literal sun. sun. The reason why Jesus is called the son of God was a Roman adaptation to Jesus being the light, Jesus being the sun. Like there's a lot of overlapping here of, and that was the way that they were able to convert.

Courtney:

Right.

Andrea:

like they were the original conversion, right?

Courtney:

yeah, they're kind of smooth in that path, like smooth in that transition by basically adapting what, like the, the religious, uh, uh, uh, infrastructure that was already there and kind of like retooling it, almost like retooling the machine for like a different type of output.

Andrea:

Which they then the Romans then did as they carried that banner around the world, right? So when you go to Mexico, the holidays that are celebrated are very different in the Catholic church to what's celebrated in Ireland, for

Courtney:

Right.

Andrea:

So that was something that, um, happened all over, but that was not something that Jesus taught. Like that wasn't

Courtney:

right.

Andrea:

Well, that wasn't his message, right? And so right there you see a break. Um, and early Christians knew that it was a break, but it was also a play for survival because they were being persecuted in so many areas. Um, and there's evidence of internal discord over that. Um, amongst those who were. Um, followers of Jesus who didn't even really call themselves Christians until close to when the Romans adopted Christianity. Um, they really just saw themselves as Jews who were following a specific teacher. Um,

Courtney:

Which which is a thing thing that still, that still kind of resonates in Judaism that there are different Judaistic, you know, Jewish doctrines as well, because different teachers had their own. So like, that's not a departure. Yeah, it's not abnormal.

Andrea:

Yeah. Yeah. So basically, um, quickly, because You know, Rome was so focused on hoarding power. I mean, that was Rome started. The Roman empire started in like 800 BC, 750 BC around then. Right. So by the time Christianity enters, like Rome is actually past its prime. Like Christianity was kind of like a ploy to kind of revive its empire in a way. and Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like way past its prime. Um, in fact, shortly after Constantine, like it, essentially the Roman Empire dissolved. So, um, what's interesting is that the the catholic Empire starts to thrive as the Roman Empire is dissolving. And so you can see where there was just this, like, this kind of pivot. I guess. And the, you know, political vying and all of the, um, power that church leaders were able to abscond over the years just really fueled that. So I'm just, I'm just painting like a backdrop of this organized religion that we're, we know is a big influence.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

um, what started happening is, um, You had this confluence of factors. You had these, um, indigenous spiritual practices that really emphasized responsibility to the people.

Courtney:

Mm.

Andrea:

The gods had to be appeased. Okay. So when you look at Celtic practices, when you look at Nordic practices, like there were these rituals and there were these, um, practices, beliefs, um, And some of them, like, you know, carry with us today, um, you know, how we ended up getting Santa Claus is a really great example of that. Um, yeah, it actually comes from the Sami people of, um, the Nordic countries. Um, and on the winter solstice, the priest or priestess, shaman,

Courtney:

hmm.

Andrea:

would go to people's homes. To practice plant medicine with this specific mushroom that is red and white, the mushroom is red and white, they would dress in red and white. And because it was the dead of winter, there was snow everywhere they had to come to the chimney. To get into these people's homes,

Courtney:

Oh my goodness.

Andrea:

no lie. Like the things that we do are taken from these indigenous practices. So

Courtney:

wow.

Andrea:

you, you cannot make this stuff up. So you have these, you have these Rome, essentially in the beginning, they are these Roman emissaries going to these different countries, preaching how great this religion is. And you have these rulers who are accountable to spiritual leaders. That are essentially preventing them from exploiting, keeping them responsible to their people. Right. And

Courtney:

yeah,

Andrea:

was a land. This was not a land of plenty. Like this is a land of very scarce resources, Western Europe, you know, deep winters, a lot of toil just to have food, just to be able to survive. Um, it was, it was not like an easy life. And so here you have these You know, emissaries coming and saying like, all of this is evil. The reason your people are suffering is because you believe in false idols. You have to repent and then your people will not suffer anymore. Right. And not only that, if you repent, then you get to make the decisions. Like all you have to do is accept Jesus and you're absolved of all of your sins. And. It just gave people this free pass and removed the accountability that was in place with these Indigenous structures, right?

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And then you layer in the patriarchal approach that Rome already had had for a thousand years by that point, like patriarchy and enslavement and all of these practices that we know are harmful and have harmed our ancestors were, were well underway in that realm. Right. And so you just see this massive proliferation of that.

Courtney:

Mm. Mm hmm.

Andrea:

So part of that, and this is where like the fear comes in, is that as they were, these emissaries were able to get These rulers to convert, right. And it was in their best favor because then all of a sudden, you know, they had support from this, you know, religious group and they were able to, you know, collect tithes. And that was part of like what kingdom, like there was, there was a lot of money involved here, a lot of money. And, um, the people resisted, like the people were not interested. They. Wanted to keep their, they called it The Old Way. That was really how, like, when you through history, they wanted to keep The Old Way. Um, and so the priests started resorting to Roman tactics of attack, right? Of, like rounding up practitioners and torturing them. Um, accusing them of heresy, um, executing them in front of their families. Anytime there was an accusation of heresy, they would take these practitioners and torture them, march them through town, force everybody, the, the, you know, the, uh, I want to say like deacons, like all the church people would get people out of their homes and it was mixed in with the King's forces. Right. So like the King's forces were at the charge of the priest. And so

Courtney:

talk about cycles and patterns,

Andrea:

so many cycles and patterns and they would force everyone out of their homes to watch these executions. So then it kind of became a game. Because you had the people who knew how to play the game well, and then they would be able to abscond power by telling on other people, right? And it just really pit people in the communities against each other. It pit families against each other. It really, it destroyed so much in Western Europe. And so you had these like enclaves. where. they didn't penetrate easily. Like I would say the Nordic countries were particularly hard. Those, um, were converted much later, um, with, within, uh, France, you had Southern France, right? Gaul, which, you know, didn't convert until the inquisition.

Courtney:

Oh,

Andrea:

Which was, you know, much later. I think the inquisition started like in 1300s, 1400s. So, this, this was a period, these were tactics that were employed by the Roman Catholic Church over 1500 years, you know,

Courtney:

Wow.

Andrea:

1500years basically. that those people And, and what were the practices that those people were doing? They were, you know, depending on the region they were in, it was divination. It was herbalism. It was, um, cosmologies. I mean, you know, we know of astrology was a big part of it. Um, in each region there were different cosmologies. So it just, it really varied. And so that wisdom was systemically attacked.

Courtney:

Mm hmm. Yeah. Oh, right.

Andrea:

So it makes sense to me when somebody freaks out, like, it's like, Oh my God, this is the devil. Cause I'm like, that's what your ancestors were sold for generations, you know, at least on the, on the Western European side, which we're going to get into non Western European side as well. Um, yeah, so that's like one aspect. And then you have the patriarchy aspect, which compounds the issue.

Courtney:

Exactly. Yeah, it does. And I'm just like, what I'm getting what I'm feeling is like you said, yeah, it's from the devil. This is dangerous. We're vocalizing, like a deep, deep kind of splenid conditioning. Um, in those moments, like, when you I mean, it. The amount of destruction. Like, I don't know. It's really hard to help people understand. Oh, the level of destruction

Andrea:

think that nine to 11 million women were killed for heresy in the Middle Ages. And, I didn't learn about the mass persecution until reading Lyla June's blog, which we can share in the show notes.

Courtney:

Oh yeah!

Andrea:

But essentially Lyla June is this beautiful native activist. This was shared to me during, um, program. I know I've talked about before a lifetime in quarantine that I took, um, in April, like before George Floyd of 2020, um, which was all about nervous system healing for. Black and brown bodied people and white bodied people were invited to witness. And so. What ended up happening is we needed to have separate spaces, obviously, because of,

Courtney:

right,

Andrea:

you know, the lack of awareness, um, and within the white identifying space, um, Lyla June's article was shared, um, and it was shared by this beautiful human that I am still in touch with today. Her name is Jen. um, and I will, um, I'll tag her. Um, in the show notes as well. Um, Jen Wilsey is her last name. Um, yes. So what Lyla June, so she is a Diné, um, member, which is a tribe out of Alaska. And, um, during one of the indigenous ceremonies, she is half Diné, half white. And one of, during one of those ceremonies, her white ancestors called her home.

Courtney:

Wow.

Andrea:

And she went to Europe to discover what their spiritual practices then and had, and really uncovered all of this trauma that had been buried, um, and wrote this phenomenal blog about it. That is just, um, mind blowing. So when I read that in 2020, I was like, holy shit, this all makes sense. Like it's all, it is all making sense. And um, I think the piece that, um, we have to remember is that it was mostly people with uteruses who had these gifts. It was mostly people who had less strength. To be doing the physical work in the field, right? They were doing more of the internal homework and they were closer to those mystical encounters because that.

Courtney:

Yeah. Yeah. yeah. And also the birth work, you know, like as we're learning, I thought we shared, um, some anthropological stuff and, and the The bodies, yes, were different, but the respect was not, like, because they were weaker, it's because their strength was being used for reproduction, and that was treated like, you know, you need people in order to need food, right? Like,

Andrea:

Yes.

Courtney:

that's something that we actually thought before all this and realized, you know, very revered in indigenous practices, for

Andrea:

practices, for sure. really um, and it really got flipped on us in, in this process, right? Um, it really got flipped on us. So, know, you know, when, when society is in a healthy relationship, There, there is an honoring of birthing and of women's bodies and men's bodies and the unique strengths that are brought to the table and not in a binary sense, because, you know, it's across the table, right? It's, it's not like a cis thing. It is just, uh, like following your strategy and authority. How is your body meant to be used? But when someone with a uterus decides to have a child, they basically take themselves out of the workforce for a while

Courtney:

Yes.

Andrea:

And they also create life.

Courtney:

Yes.

Andrea:

So those two things. Our mystical experiences in and of themselves. Right. And so, um, you think about and, and I can't remember if we talked about this last week, but I know you and I talked about this last week of this deep dive I've been doing on patriarchy, which is

Courtney:

yes, yes.

Andrea:

taking me down some major rabbit holes. But when you think about, um, the rules that started to be placed on women. And this, you know, this goes back five, 6, 000 years. This is not, um, this was nothing new by the time the Romans picked up that mantle, but they really perfected it. Um, and you know, would not allow women to vote, um, didn't allow women to hold political office. There was, there were so many layers of patriarchy. Um, but then, You layer in this fact that so many women have this These skills, right? Like these life saving skills because herbalism was medicine that saved lives. Um, and that became very threatening. The men doubted whether or not they were actually going to be saved by these women, right? And if you think about it, it makes sense because they had been harming them. And so they were afraid that the women were going to harm them back, right? Um, and honestly, like, I think that's a valid fear. But instead of Stopping harming them. They

Courtney:

That was, that was a splenic center operating correctly, by the way, that was definitely like, you should probably think about how you treat that person because they could save your life if you needed it. And that's, that's why, yeah, that, that explains it. The Ajna was not an alignment with no, the

Andrea:

Ajna was like, Oh, we got to double down on this and we got to kill them all.

Courtney:

Mm. Mm-mmm.

Andrea:

here's the crazy part. So we're still in Western Europe. They've killed, you know, nine to 11 million women. And then what happens? They go into the Dark Ages. Plagues, famine. Like how many deaths happened and that over several hundred years is what predates the transatlantic slave trade.

Courtney:

Wow.

Andrea:

So why did they need to steal people? Why did they need to steal resources?

Courtney:

Mm. They were gone. They were wiped out!

Andrea:

They mess themselves up.

Courtney:

Yep. That is mind blowing and heartbreaking

Andrea:

and heartbreaking. It really is heartbreaking. It is because, you know, it's, I guess I come to this like six line place of recognizing Unfortunately, as humans, we have to experience the absolute worst in order to remember the best of us.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

And so if I can look at this 2000 year period or 1700 year period, and you know, I mean, things were pretty bad when Jesus came around. Like, I think if they hadn't been bad, he wouldn't have come then.

Courtney:

Listen!

Andrea:

Like things were not going so great. So let's say 2500 year period. Um, what I also think is so interesting. And you and I talked about this a tiny bit last week, but I've been thinking about it since, is how the, these sicknesses traveled, right, like this, um, these ways of being, the violence, the harm, traveled to this land that we are on. And when you look at the history of this land, it is nothing like that history. Right.

Courtney:

No, the

Andrea:

now, you know, wasn't rainbows and butterflies. Like, I mean, there were, there was definitely, you know, feuds and you know, territorial stuff, but. Ultimately, the, this knowingness of the land, relationship with the land, the cosmologies that we're talking about, the spiritual practices that kept people in healthy relationship were mostly intact until the 1500s. And so it makes sense to me that we could remember that more easily here.

Courtney:

That's so interesting.

Andrea:

The land holds that memory, you know,

Courtney:

Yeah, I mean, yeah. Like, well, I also feel like that story is still unfolding, too. Mm hmm. Because the losers in history, um, in what is now the United States, is the indigenous community. And I feel like there's stories that we don't even know. when it comes to what they've gone through. And I feel like and

Andrea:

the slave trade, right?

Courtney:

Like also, also that. Both. Yeah, for sure. Like, well, I was thinking just before the slave trade, the indigenous there, their encounters with, you know, like Christopher Columbus and, you know, the first, the first Europeans that landed, you know, on the coast of what is now the United States. Um, but. And then the encounters that happened in the motherland.

Andrea:

So it was interesting is that there were many encounters with Europeans before the settlers. So that's something we don't know a lot about, but there were many, there's, there's several, um, stories of

video1928636783:

Native

Andrea:

Americans being enslaved and taken back to

Courtney:

Right.

video1928636783:

Like,

Andrea:

like hundreds of years before.

Courtney:

story. She was trafficked.

Andrea:

Oh, was she?

Courtney:

Yeah, because she was like, she was very, very young. She was too young to be in a married to a John Smith. And by the time she was

Andrea:

they take her back to,

Courtney:

it took her back to England and she died very soon after.

Andrea:

Oh, I didn't realize that.

Courtney:

Of illness. Yeah. So, it really, you know, there's so many layers and I think like, one thing that I think, Is interesting. And I think it ties in really well to this conversation. Um, I have the channel of curiosity and the channel of surrender. So I'm like looking at like my experiences and what I know and like understanding the power of storytelling. I, One thing about the establishment of the United States is a shift in the storytelling

Andrea:

Mm

Courtney:

who a winner is and who a loser is.

Andrea:

Mm hmm.

Courtney:

the fact that our nation is a settler colony, um, in comparison to, to a Europe, which

Andrea:

hmm. Or or like a Roman empire. Mm

Courtney:

right. And so what you have is like, you have individuals who are not, um, kings and queens and dukes and duchesses. These are commoners in a lot of ways. Absolutely. Establishing themselves as the winners and the storytellers in the United States. And so what you begin to see is almost like this splintering of like, the, the, the big uppity ups aren't cool. And the ones below us aren't either. It's, but this rugged individualism kind of Props up out of this idea of like, I pull myself up by my bootstraps, me and my Lord, me and my God. And it's the sheer power of God and the will of these rugged people that's been able to subdue the savages, take the Black man, save the Black man, which I think is another really important piece of this and save them from what, you know, their lives of, of aimless, you know. Debauchery or whatever.

Andrea:

Yeah. And I'm sorry, all you're doing is passing on this legacy of violence and killing and harming.

Courtney:

The actual story itself is the same, but the method of storytelling changes dramatically because of the radical spirituality and the economic standing of these individuals.

Andrea:

That

Courtney:

So it's really, but the, but the we'll see it, the misogyny is still there. The racism is still there. The incredible amounts of violence, still there. I mean, they're putting each other in stocks. I mean,

Andrea:

even the, the practices of the police today are a great example of the, the same practices that were used in medieval era.

Courtney:

Oh, yeah. Salem witch trials. The same. And which started with a Black woman, the very first woman who was killed in the Salem witch trials was a Black woman. And so,

Andrea:

And I think they were accusing her of voodoo. Yeah. accusing her of like, uh, creating, uh, a doll to torture someone.

Courtney:

Yeah. But she was the first. And so it was, it was a shot. It was a warning shot to the women and to the Black people and the indigenous community. It was a shot for everyone

Andrea:

Yeah.

Courtney:

who was not a white man. And so it really is important, you know, me and is resonating with me deeply. Um, as someone who's like a product of the South, I'm a product of the United States, I'm a product of these stories, this education system, and these celebrations, um, and religion. That the storytelling changed, but the stories didn't. And so the fear had all this room to continue to flourish. You know, the fear was still very much. a very central ingredient to keeping the population subdued here, just like it was there.

Andrea:

Yeah. And I think what you're connecting in, which is where I really wanted to go next is how this impacted people who do not have Western European descent or don't have, you know, majority Western European descent. Um, because the, when you look at those with Western European descent, that trauma and that violence is further down the chain. And so we have become propagators of that trauma and violence, but we have forgotten the trauma and violence that was done to us. And what happened is that became like a, um, a moral failure. So when we are attacked by the same system, because we're all being attacked by the same system, it's viewed as a moral failure. When you look at the way that The people who came over through the transatlantic slave trade were treated, right? That is a much more recent memory. That is, you know, four or five hundred years ago. That is, you know, less than 100 years ago, right? The same tools and tactics have been used repeatedly in lynchings and in so many other of killing for lack for lack of a better, for lack of a more creative term. And so, when, when we look at those fears that came up for you, right, they. Are possibly more palpable and, um, just more paralyzing than let's say, like the way they're going to show up for me is going to be a little bit more subtle and it's going to make me think that it's like a, um, end of like a moral failure on my part. Whereas for you, it's going to make you feel like you're in mortal danger. That

Courtney:

and I'm putting the people around me in danger. Another thing, like, what you said makes me think about how legacy minded Black and brown people tend to be. Like, everything we do is going to impact the people around us all the time. It doesn't matter like what it is, but in this specifically, absolutely. It's, you know, like, I remember buying my first tarot deck a few years ago and how massive of a deal that was huge, huge deal to have a tarot deck. And I specifically chose a hoodoo tarot deck and it was totally one of those sacral yeses where I said, I saw it. I was in a Black owned, um, bookstore in DC with, um, Rebecca Borucki and some incredible women that, um, just all of them so wonderful. And I was like in this space of a lot of joy and pleasure and just very feeling very free. And that's where I could really like hear, like, as soon as I saw it, I was like, I need this. Like, I know that need this. And, um, But at the same time, like I bring it home and I'm like, Oh my God, like, what did I just bring into my house? And, and so there's, again, you know, I think what's beautiful about fear, which I think is a larger conversation. And I think that we're getting at here, which is like, fear is not necessarily in and of itself, a bad thing. And one of the, Beautiful things about the fear that I experienced was it gave me the opportunity to learn. It gave me the opportunity to dig. And what I understood, what I came to understand is that line in the sand, that crossroads that Europeans, um, were, were forced into by the Romans. Is something that has not ever fully caught on in the Black community, right? All the push and intensity that it was for try like people tried to force this out of us. And I'm not saying to a certain extent, it didn't happen. But the, the, the, the, Gospel music, the ring shout, the, the Holy ghost kind of encounters. Oh my God. What is happening?

Andrea:

Zoom is celebrating

Courtney:

you. You have to

Andrea:

y'all, you got to go to the YouTube and see this video.

Courtney:

crazy That was crazy

Andrea:

Wow.

Courtney:

crazy.

Andrea:

That was cool. All

Courtney:

I can't believe we have this recorded, but it never went away. And so when I. And I've read about who do and read that who do, cause you know, very short explanation. Voodoo is a layering because it came out of like the new Orleans kind of area. Yeah. It came of West

Andrea:

West African

Courtney:

Yeah. Through that

Andrea:

tradition. Mm hmm.

Courtney:

Through that new Orleans channel. And so it's French inspired with the Catholicism mixed with like Haitian. Um, uh, Modalities and religion via Africa. Right. So it's more of a, it's like a catholic flavored, you know Santeria, or like something like Yes. So who do came through almost from what I understand do like the gully Geechee. community. So it's a slightly different, and it's also, um, more, uh, influenced by Anglican Protestantism because that was the area where Protestantism was more, um, prolific and present. And so they are these slightly different. And so for me, it was one of those moments where I'm like, that's me. You know? And the other thing that really, really, um, hit for me, and I think I remember having this conversation with you, um, but I said, However, I feel about, or more so whatever I think about, or taught, was taught about hoodoo, or voodoo, or, um, Traditional African religions or any of this, whatever I think about it, I'm here because of this. There's what my family, what my lineage has gone through in the 500 plus years to get me here. Like all of it is what got me here. All of it the reason why I'm here. Like Ra says, the conditioning, however you feel about it, got you here.

Andrea:

Gotcha here! Yep!

Courtney:

You know what I mean? And, and so there is a A level of like,"put some respect on my name" that I felt when I encountered my tarot deck, which was like, this didn't matter if you think this is good or bad, right, or wrong, those binaries have nothing to do with the existence and the power and the potency of what these, what these religions and spiritual practices are, because the power of it Is why reason why you're here.

Andrea:

Wow. Yeah. That's huge.

Courtney:

You know, so I have chills from that. And so it's like, that put me in a different place when it came to

Andrea:

Yeah.

Courtney:

my fear. It answered it. Like it honored it. But it answered it. It's like Courtney. get it. Like my heart was like, I understand why you're starting to question your worthiness around this because your worthiness has been so deeply attached to being a perfect Christian, your worthiness, your safety.

Andrea:

yeah,

Courtney:

All of that. But now you know for a fact that it was all of this, including these things that the, these groups around you are misinformed, um, and diluted, um, and don't know what they're saying. Now, you know, like now I knew that this was already a part of me. Yeah. And so my next step is to reconcile the relationship

Andrea:

Yeah.

Courtney:

That I have with this because it is a part of who I am.

Andrea:

Yeah. yeah, and I think that, like, this encapsulates part of what I wanted to make sure our listeners are taking away, I guess, is a way to think of it, is that, like, it's perfectly normal to have fear around

Courtney:

Yeah. Yeah,

Andrea:

is a healthy response to the trauma that our lineage has experienced, but, and also, but, and also They are a part of the human experience. And so othering them is only going to divorce you from a part of yourself.

Courtney:

yes, yes, Yeah, it, it, it robs you of the experience of the box being big enough for you. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's what we started out with. Like we both experiencing like this box of what it, of the spirit box is not containing my spirit. Like my spirit is not in here. It's a couple of legs. I'm imagining one of our kiddos, you know, how kiddos like to shove themselves in boxes, you know, or whatever. And then like drag their bodies across the floor with their arms. That's what I felt like we were doing

Andrea:

Yes.

Courtney:

weird shit. Like what in the world? Like wearing small clothes and. it doesn't made for us. Like it wasn't, it was not made for

Andrea:

No,

Courtney:

And, and To, you know, yes, you have the fear, but just know that like part of that fear is coming from a place where, that fear is because you've been walking around in something that wasn't made for you for a long time.

Andrea:

Hmm.

Courtney:

Yeah. And. The fear of what it means to be free, what it means to feel comfortable inside of something you were just taught that you're supposed to be uncomfortable in it, that it was, that's how it was supposed to be. You're just to fear that, you know?

Andrea:

And also like if you're in clothes that are the right size, you'll be killed.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

You know, like, okay, well, I'll just be uncomfortable in this, you know, ill fitting box because I don't want to die, you know, at least, you know, especially for your recent ancestors and for my more distant ancestors, I think that is definitely, and maybe not that distant. I mean, I, I know that I had very, um, you know, powerful and like, Hmm, they like to push the box. My, my, especially my female ancestors. ancestors. Um,

Courtney:

Oh, wow.

Andrea:

yes, big time. So, you know, that wasn't, that wasn't something that, um, was safe to do for any, you know, regardless of, um, regardless of your lineage, it wasn't safe. So I do, I want to make sure we bring this around, um, so that our listeners can think about, okay, what What do I do with this fear when it comes up, because it's going to come up, um, if, if you don't have it, people around you will have it like it's, it's, it's endemic.

Courtney:

Yeah, it is. Um, I know that for like, for me, one of the biggest things was, um, learning the information in and of itself is not dangerous. And I know that that's such a, you know, I grew up in religious systems that said that like knowing of knowing about something is basically the same as endorsing it

Andrea:

Wow. And think about that in and of itself, right? Because if you don't know about it, then how can you heal it? And so if I don't keep you. Ignorant.

Courtney:

dark and

Andrea:

then can never heal these histories of trauma that your ancestors faced.

Courtney:

Yeah. Oh yeah. It's, but it's totally your right to know. It's right to know. And that's the beautiful thing about outer authority. If you think about it, because you can choose, like we have choice about who the outer authority, what the outer authority is. And so

Andrea:

And your inner authority will tell you. Your inner authority is going to tell you

Courtney:

that part.

Andrea:

Yeah. I mean, I think the moral of the story is like, you, you got to follow your strategy and authority. And if you are, you know, um, falling into a not self behavior around it. You're going to feel frustration. You're going to feel bitterness, you're going to feel anger, you're going to feel not self. And so,

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

trusting your strategy and authority. Um, one of the things that will happen is that if you're not trusting your strategy and authority, then you will continue to bump up against it. And so, you know, one of the things that I have had to navigate is, you know, different like anxieties or like. Not believing myself when I'm getting a clear message, right? I have splenic authority. And so, um, I would second guess myself or talk myself out of things because of the, those kind of fear patterns. And so your strategy and authority is just going to keep bumping you up against it until you're able to heal at a level where you can start to trust.

Courtney:

Yes, absolutely. I know I experienced the same thing with my sacral authority. Um, and I think I know you have resource yourself, which is like my favorite. That's like my favorite thing. I've never heard someone say resource yourself before until I met you. And now it just rings in my head all the time because it's true. It's like life is is,

Andrea:

Mm hmm.

Courtney:

all these different things. Like right now we're talking about life as this opportunity to engage the fear of. Spirituality, um, and resourcing yourself when you are engaging this space is critical just like any other space, you know, so like, for instance, the generator joy is a big thing, like something that I found deep joy in, um, is gospel music.

Andrea:

I love that.

Courtney:

I love it so much. It moves me so deeply. It gives me chills. I love to sing to it. And it keeps me joyful, feeling connected, feeling inspired. Um, feeling seen. You know, that music for me just does something that like, Only my sacral knows what's happening, like my sacral and my spirit. I don't know. I can't explain to you why this happens, but it happens every time. And I'm just here for it. I'm just accepting it and just, I'm just soaking it in. Yeah. So

Andrea:

transmuting something.

Courtney:

yeah.

Andrea:

I love that.

Courtney:

hmm.

Andrea:

And I think resourcing yourself, you know, this is where it's so helpful to know your design and know what you need. Right. Like for those that are non emotionals, right. You might just need some alone time to, digest emotional energy that is in your environment, whether it's, you know, with your partner or your family members, um, You know, if you're a second line, you need alone time. Um,

Courtney:

Yes.

Andrea:

you, um, have a defined crown, like I do, and you're a projector, you might just need to go down some real good rabbit holes, which, you know, I have to just give myself a lot of space for lots of rabbit holes because that fills me up, that leaves me feeling energized.

Courtney:

Yeah. Yeah. And how you're feeling in it, like you keep saying, but I just want to reiterate how you're feeling in the process, like. The fear is the first thing you might feel, but it's not the fear is not there. So you start ignoring everything else, or you're just trying to run away from the sensation and you're trying to go from sensation to no sensation. Like that's not the goal.

Andrea:

That's not the goal. Yeah.

Courtney:

The goal is to bring your sensation to your signature, know, by following your strategy and authority.

Andrea:

Yeah. I, there was an interesting quote from Mastin Kipp, who, um, he used to write the daily love this was, you know, more than 15 years ago, probably no more than 10 years ago, probably 12 or 13 years ago. But one of the things that he would say is fear is a compass pointing you in the direction you need to go unless you're in mortal danger, which I always thought was great. It's like, you know, if fear is bringing something up, it's cause you're meant to move towards it. Um, because there's something there to be uncovered. Um, but always, you know, using your strategy and authority. Always. Trusting your own inner guidance and knowing that if you don't feel the capacity, the whole reason why we resource ourselves is so we have the capacity for these complex feelings, um, and experiences. But if you don't have the capacity, it's just going to come back. So it's okay. You know, just like, be honest. I don't have the capacity for this right now. Like I probably should dive into this, but I just can't and have grace for yourself and know that like, If it's meant for you, it's, it's going to come back around and hopefully you'll have more capacity for it when it does.

Courtney:

I love that because life be lifin and you, and we can't deal with it all at one time, you know, but I will say also that as we keep reiterating strategy and authority, if your current faith container does not hold space for for you to. like, have an understanding and a trust in your strategy and authority, a sense of like, you can't know what you need. Because that's a, that's a big part of the tradition that I came from that it could be your very first step.

Andrea:

Hmm. It could be,

Courtney:

it could

Andrea:

it could be the biggest revolution.

Courtney:

It really could. It is, I believe it is, you know, everything that comes after that, you know, was wonderful, but there's nothing that will ever supersede you like arriving to the place where you know that your body knows what you need through your strategy and authority.

Andrea:

Mic drop. Like

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

So good.

Courtney:

Yeah.

Andrea:

Thank you. Love. This is so good.

Courtney:

This was so good. I needed this. I did. I I felt very along for the ride for this one. I was like, uh, no. I don't know how much I gotta bring to this one.'cause I, I kind of need it myself.

Andrea:

To our, listeners. Thank you. Thank you for tuning in. Please do follow the show and leave us your reviews. Connect with us. Find us on Instagram. We'll be better about adding our profiles and stuff because I'm not even sure they're sure they're on there.

Courtney:

They are. No, they are.

Andrea:

They Oh, they are? Okay, good. Okay,

Courtney:

I'm going to double check.

Andrea:

Come say hi, please.

Courtney:

Please

Andrea:

Somebody said hi this week and it made my life.

Courtney:

It's so great. We love it. We love the comments. We love everything. Thank you so much.

Andrea:

Okay, till next time.

Courtney:

Bye y'all.

Courtney Napier:

Thank you so much for tuning into HD and Liberation podcast. We hope you've gained valuable insights into human design and its role in building a life of peace, success, satisfaction, and wonder. If you've enjoyed this episode, please show your support by liking, following, and sharing our podcast. on YouTube, or your favorite podcast platform. Your engagement helps us reach more people who can benefit from this wisdom. For exclusive content and to join our thriving community, consider becoming a Patreon member. Your support allows us to continue exploring the depths of human design and its potential for life and community transformation. Stay tuned for more fun, thoughtful, and impacting discussions. Together, we're unlocking the path to a more liberated and authentic life. Thank you for being a part of HD and Liberation Podcast.

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Andrea Ward Berg

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Courtney Napier

Co-host