HDxLiberation: A Human Design Podcast

Episode 3: What Is Liberation Theology?

• Courtney Napier, Andrea Ward Berg • Season 1 • Episode 3

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HDxLiberation Podcast Episode 3: What Is Liberation Theology?


In this thought-provoking episode of the HDxLiberation Podcast, hosts Courtney Napier and Andrea Ward Berg delve into the rich and transformative world of liberation theology. They share their personal journeys of awakening and how these experiences have shaped their understanding of liberation in both individual and collective contexts. The discussion navigates through the historical roots of liberation theology, its intersections with human design, and the imperative of embracing our multitudinous identities for a truly liberated existence. This episode is a deep dive into the spiritual and philosophical underpinnings that challenge oppressive systems and advocate for a multiverse of coexisting truths and freedoms.


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Courtney Napier:

Welcome back everybody. Hey girl. Hey. Hey, how are you?

Andrea Ward Berg:

I'm good. Recovering. Yeah.

Courtney Napier:

The plague, it's been crazy, like health wise, it's been tough,

Andrea Ward Berg:

Yeah. Yeah. This has been a hard winter. I just think across the board, everybody is struggling.

Courtney Napier:

Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Yeah. I'm grateful to be back in the land of the living. Me

Courtney Napier:

too. I'm grateful that you are too.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Oh my goodness. Yeah. So I'm excited for today. I'm excited to talk about liberation and. Explore the roots of some of the things that I think are much more commonly discussed now. But anyway, it was interesting to me to dive a little bit deeper down the rabbit hole, the roots of liberation and what we come to think of it

Courtney Napier:

today. Yeah, me too. Me too. It's so interesting how We're both like astrology buffs and it feels like almost a similar trajectory where there were different parts of the world who Began using this modality at the same time in their own way and then when they finally met in the middle it was it just grew the influence like Exponentially.

Andrea Ward Berg:

I love it. one of the places we had talked about starting was, really just exploring how each of us started in our liberation journey. And I can't wait to hear your story.

Courtney Napier:

Yes, so I, mine started out as more of a, racial identity development story. I grew up in the South, grew up in North Carolina, in predominantly white spaces, primarily, mainly because I North Carolina is still incredibly segregated, like you wouldn't believe. Yeah. and so you have to choose. It's, there's very few places where you can be in and it's just like naturally, very diverse all the way around. And but that definitely informed how I felt about myself growing up. And my family at the time also had more conservative worldview. I grew up in the white evangelical church. I had a lot of internalized anti-Blackness, and that really didn't come to the fore until Trayvon Martin's murder in 2012. I mentioned in an earlier episode, but just the way that we were situated in our community that could have easily been, I have five younger siblings and that could have easily been one of them. And it just was like seeing that story unfold felt like a nightmare. Because it really, truly could have been one of them. It could have been me, but it certainly could have been one of my brothers. And that hit me in a way that I wasn't anticipating. I, liken it to rose colored glasses being shattered because I just, it just had never none of the things, none of the isms, none of the statistics or whatever had ever felt like it hit that close to home. Yeah. even though we were fully living the Black experience, And all of those in so many different ways, there's just, I just was, I refuse to see a lot of it. I was shielded from, quite a bit of it. I'm a kid of the nineties. We were, we really still had this colorblind, philosophy ideology where we truly believe that one day none of this would matter. So we don't need to even talk about it. We don't need to learn about it. You don't need to go deep into it because it's all going to disappear anyway. so at that point I realized that like it's not disappearing or it's not disappearing fast enough for me to not. Educate myself. Yeah. And, I started educating myself from that point forward. my mom got me this book. I believe it was the Phenomenal Rosa Parks, I think is what it's called. I will definitely put it in the show notes, but that got me on my journey of understanding what it took to get us where we are, and also how those individuals, especially those who lived their life into the 21st century, really think about the progress that we've made. You know what I mean? Do they really, are they really proud of the progress that we've made? Is this what they anticipated? Is this what they want for us? Do they want more for us? Is this all there is? And, that led me to Reading a lot of other incredible books about Corretta Scott King, I read Frederick Douglass's slave narrative, which is outstanding, especially his commentary on the white church. and then Ta Nehisi Coates and Anna Nicole Jones, two journalists that Honestly, inspired me to become a journalist and a writer, and sitting with that years later sitting with the murder of Michael Brown, I'm pregnant with my first baby. This was like it, radicalized me in many ways. You know what I mean? It truly radicalized me, opened my eyes and made me realize that I want more, I deserve more than what I'm experiencing. it's not even time to even talk about colorblindness yet, because what the lived experiences of people are don't align with the life that we should be experiencing in order to no longer talk about race. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. It's just very premature. And

Andrea Ward Berg:

I think, we can get into this, but I think more than premature, I think that it was a tool. I think that it was

Courtney Napier:

100

Andrea Ward Berg:

percent definitely a tool of capitalism to try to distract.

Courtney Napier:

Totally. Absolutely. Because, even in the time that it was being spouted, like the Clinton era, that's the same era of Rodney King. That's the same era of the man who was murdered in, the Bart in San Francisco. And this is, all the same time. And so it absolutely was a distraction. But I think Underneath it, and, this is where I think it gets to liberation. It's like being a minority and being minoritized are two different things. Being a minority just means that there are not as many people with your identity as maybe with another, and that does not have to carry any sort of oppression with it. Yeah. It's actually quite objective. It's, but minor being minoritized, Of course, yeah, there are minorities, there's always going to be people, of a smaller group of people among a larger group of people, identity wise, but to be minoritized, to be made smaller, to be treated less than another group of people, to have less access, less, respect, less mobility, that's wrong. that is Unethical. That is inhumane. And that's what we've, made these two things the same. We've made minority and minoritization the same in our society. And that's, I think when like how liberation comes in and says, wait, there are differences among us. Yes. But does that mean that we should have Different levels of access? Does that mean that we should be treated with different levels of respect in society? Does that mean that we have different levels of mobility? or even just

Andrea Ward Berg:

like different levels of worth, right? Of inherent.

Courtney Napier:

Yes, absolutely. That does not mean that. And so I feel like when I came across, Dr. Cone, Dr. James Cone, which is my first real introduction to liberation theology. My husband bought his book for Christmas one year. It was a breath of fresh air because I had always I love God. I love Jesus. I'm, I don't know if I call myself a Christian, but I do admire and want to emulate how the Jesus of the Bible treated the people around him. Yeah. There's something totally radical about that. and James Cone was the first person I came across who actually captured that and didn't brush it to the side or make it fairytale like, but made it actually applicable to the world that we all actually live in. The experiences were all actually experiencing and I've never seen theology brought into the present in that way. and that was a huge blessing for me because I was like all almost out. I was like almost done with all of it. And finding him and then finding womanist theology, which I think is even richer and in a lot of ways, and, more of a blessing for me personally. yeah, I'm like, okay, I can get down with this because it's real. It's like eyes wide open. Yeah. I don't have to ignore anything to, be able to still have my faith.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Absolutely. And, in fact, not ignoring anything makes your faith stronger because, the watered down version of theology that is, popularized today, again, it's, it is, it's a tool. It's not the truth. And so it is a tool to keep people toiling, keep people with their head down, keep people, not aware of the ways that they are being conditioned and manipulated. And so once you start to take that wool from your eyes, then you can take your power back.

Courtney Napier:

Yes. Yes. Oh, how about you, Andrea? I'm super interested. I think I've heard a little bit of this, but not the whole thing. So I'm excited.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Yeah, I think you have to. it's interesting because in a lot of ways we had opposite experiences, growing up. I also grew up in the South, but I grew up in the middle of urban Atlanta. and In a time period when desegregation, policies were still very much practiced. And what that looked like for me was, very integrated schools. our schools, we were, we had a program called M to M, which was majority to minority. and it was set out to take kids from. Areas where they were in underfunded schools, primarily Black schools and bring them to better funded quote unquote white schools. and the whole goal was this 5050 was making each school 5050. Wow. So that was in the. 80s and 90s. it even went to the Supreme Court, my last year of elementary school. And, yeah, there were, quite, there was quite a lot of pushback from the, white residents. but honestly, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. it was. I think an opportunity to grow up in, a cultural epicenter, and really experience culture, which is not every native Atlantans experience. I grew up during the time of Fricknick and, major cultural experiences. And I was, obviously very young. So I was, But, it was a very real and raw time in this city. and I think also, a major role were the teachers that I had, because, there was not only representation for students, but there was also representation for teachers and administrators. And, as we were doing our homework for this. Episode. I was just thinking of, the many incredible Black women who poured into me as a young, very impressionable projector child.

Courtney Napier:

Yes.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Oh, I was just soaking it all up. so that was really the foundation that I had. And I left, my high school in 97 and again, 50, 50 representation, I was involved, I played basketball with a majority Black team. I was on drill team with majority Black drill team, and fully immersed. You

Courtney Napier:

need pictures. Yes. I know. That was so cute. I can just see it in my head and I know they loved you and I know you love them. Oh, I just had all the sequins. Oh my God. And the big, pom Yes.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Oh man, we had fun. We had a lot of fun. The other day there was this, reel of like songs that are turning 40 or 30, I think 30. And one of them was Tootsie Roll. And we danced in the gym in front of the entire school.

Courtney Napier:

of course. Oh my gosh, I love

Andrea Ward Berg:

that. Yeah. So that, really paints a good understanding of my foundation and at the same time, we were all asleep to the, realities that Black bodies were experiencing, and so that wake up for me started again with Trayvon Martin. I had come back to Atlanta from Mexico. I had been living in Mexico working for a large multinational corporation for many years. I had been in Mexico for six years at that point, and I had been with the corporation for almost 10 and, or right at 10 and, I think that the realities of, how my Black friends and colleagues were, making it seem like things weren't as bad as they were and, yeah, it blew the discussion open in a way that hadn't ever been. It just hadn't ever been, and I think that was scary for a lot of my Black colleagues. but it also gave them a sense of, Of righteousness of clean righteousness of this is the reality that we've been living in and, releasing shame and releasing, any kind of blame that they might've had towards themselves. And and to your point with everything that happened in Ferguson after that. I think it was really when we started to see the influence that social media would have on our understanding of systems that we're

Courtney Napier:

living in. Absolutely,

Andrea Ward Berg:

And that was when I started to find many of my teachers as well. and when I read bell hooks for the first time, or, many years later, I found, Milagros Phillips, who talks about healing racism and just really learning the roots of where these ideas come from, It just blows the fallacy wide open. And I guess because I'm so highly sensitive, like I can, really smell it out from a mile away. the anti Blackness and the, the ruse. the other interesting thing that definitely plays a role is the number of years that I was in Mexico and just the, Experiences that I had in India and in Europe and in other parts of Latin America. we have this idea that, it only racism only exists in the US and it was just really cool as you were unearthing some of the liberation theology roots that there are really deep roots in Latin America. And it. It doesn't surprise me in any way, shape or form because, the Spaniards who really created the systems that we know in this part of the world, they colonized Latin America first. And the caste system and, the economic warfare of taking all of the money out of these countries, which they weren't really countries at the time. They were more just like geographic regions, right? that all started with the Spaniards. it is, stark and has the exact same roots of anti Blackness.

Courtney Napier:

It really does. it is, it's so shocking to see how, yeah, these, two modalities rising up and literally saying the same thing, called different things, but saying the exact same thing because the experiences are exactly the same. And anyone who understands transatlantic slave trade understands that. The experiences, by and large, are incredibly similar, and you could probably speak to almost, to this day, there are still incredible similarities between what Afro Mexicans, which just received a designation for the first time on the census in, 2018 or something like that, and other, Latin Americans of, African descent and, how they're treated.

Andrea Ward Berg:

you talk about minoritization. It's not even. Oh, it's. Yeah. Recognition. no, it's not. a lot, to unpack and heal in that realm. So that kind of brought us together because, we have a common colleague, Rebecca Baruchi. Yes. Yes. Really is the reason why we ended up finding each other. and Bex just does such a great job of elevating Black and brown voices in the space and creating, disrupting and creating new systems that are allowing us to hear straight from those who have been dreaming about what's possible for longer than any of us can imagine.

Courtney Napier:

Yes. Yes. And I think that's, really, I don't know about you, but, I think that's the part about liberation studies and liberation theology that really captured me because It was beyond, describing the problem. It was beyond like, of giving it a name. this is real. This is a problem. Yes. And this is this prescription. Like this is the antidote to that. This is what we can build instead that heals us and cures us of, of. these systems of oppression that are killing us all, like not just one group of us, not just a minority, not just the target, but all of us as a species are being undermined by these systems that I think that was like the big thing. I don't know about you. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Ward Berg:

I think the, fact that it's a spiritual affliction. When you look at, when you look at the roots and I think that was why, Milagros is Milagros Phillips. Her work, really was probably the biggest turning point for me of, turning from the affliction to the cure, and her book, Cracking the Healer's Code, I highly recommend to everyone who is in this space, Along with Reshma Minicham's work, My Grandmother's Hands, who I found out later, the two of them have worked together. Reshma actually wrote, an endorsement for her book. So of course they have. but really recognizing the spiritual affliction, of Western Europeans and in the timeframe, yes. the time frame directly predating the transatlantic slave trade was a time frame of just many hundreds of years of war and death and play and, just really treating each other. Absolutely horribly. I just, I just finished reading a historical fiction novel that takes place during that time. And, every time I read about the 1400s, the 1300s, that timeframe, I'm just really shaken by the depravity and the absolute horrors that they were doing to each other. Just like inhumane, just absolutely horrific, this particular book was about, England during that time. and brothers killing their brothers, like just. their brother's children, like just, Oh God, it's, awful, absolutely awful. So totally depraved each other that way, then, how are they going to treat somebody that they don't perceive as the same as them? And you just, you start to see where the

Courtney Napier:

seeds of,

Andrea Ward Berg:

the horrors are, where they come from. so yeah, this idea of recognizing where the spiritual illness comes from and really grieving what needs to be grieved, really like allowing yourself to go there to grieve because even if like in your case, for example, you don't have as many Ancestors. You probably have some because we all have some from, the whiteness.

Courtney Napier:

That is true. I've seen it. I've seen my, ancestor DNA and it is like a good 20 percent 18 to 20 percent European descent. So they are there. They are

Andrea Ward Berg:

there. and just like recognizing the proliferation and influence that these really depraved people had, over modern populations, way more than I think we Really have, ability

Courtney Napier:

to grasp. Yes. Yes. And I want to point out because you said it, I think in a conversation that we had, but it's, coming to mind this idea of there were, there was a time, thousands of years actually, where there was a check on that. There were always seem to be a check on that. And that was spirituality, like spirituality. mysticism, was, An entity outside of government an entity almost outside of yeah, the throne, whatever the throne was a chief or whoever it was to be a type of a check on the power of that person, because this here's the thing about Human Design. I love to bring it back in is that there is no denial of difference. There's no denial of like different roles, different ideas on what it means to, to survive and thrive as a human being, different belief systems, all these things. That's

Andrea Ward Berg:

the point, right? Like differentiation is the point of Human Design. So yeah, for sure. It doesn't deny. And it also like. It opens up our understanding of the range that these energies have. So yes, a couple of things come to mind when you're talking about this. when we're talking about the feudal system or the system that these ancestors were living in, very much governed by energy of gate 45, which is, manifest or energy. It's a part of the channel that moves from the heart center to the throat. And that. That gate is the gate of rulership. It is literally like the archetypal gate of the king, right? Or the queen, but that gate is in relationship to the gate of control which is the gate that comes off the heart center and control keeps rulership and balance and What you learn about in Human Design is that gate 45 it's the gate of the gatherer It is the one who has this magnetism to bring resources to them, to redistribute and keep their kingdoms safe, to redistribute and make sure that their kingdom is flourishing. And when the kingdom is not flourishing. Because they're holding on to too much power, then the kingdom will take the power back. And that is exactly what was happening in these feudal times, right? The, whoever was in power was very much dependent on the wider population being happy with their leadership. The other check and balance that, and I think this is the one that we've talked about, is the role of the six line, and When you're looking at profile and you have this, fifth line energy that is very much the leadership archetype, the, the royalty in the, in, in the, upstairs window and the house analogy for profile. And the sixth line is, the, sage is the, mystic that is that rulers right hand person. And I. People look to, to make sure that the ruler is actually saying objective truth because the six line is, focused on objective truth. and so having a six line next to them. As a ruler gives them some measure of credibility gives them some measure of accountability because the six line is not interested in the politics and all of the shenanigans that right line might

Courtney Napier:

be up to. Absolutely. It's almost like a lookout, but the lookout is not, it's not a lookout just for the king. It's a lookout for everyone, right? For the kingdom. Yeah. Yeah.

Andrea Ward Berg:

"Kin-dom" as my, As my church likes to call it the kin-dom.

Courtney Napier:

Yeah, I love that And yeah, absolutely. And so during that time of feudalism, maybe before that, I think you were, you, can clear this up, but there was this usurping of that spiritual power or like the, Yes. Consolidation of power. Consolidation. Where. Yeah. Yeah. Where the king became also the spiritual leader or that the spiritual leader became literally, under the rulership of the king, as opposed to, they are the ones that have the, they are expressing the, intentionality of spirit and the king is carrying out the will of spirit for the benefit of something like that, that distinction carrying out the will for the benefit of, the, kingdom. but then that became such that the king. Oh, so I'm thinking like England, the church of England and that kind of thing. It was definitely yes, but definitely became a, it's almost like they became a spokesperson, if you will. The, spiritual leader, the religious leader became the ones that sold the plan of the king to the people instead of having its own outside like check. It was like, yeah, okay, I can, get them on my side. And I think of for the United States, I think of Billy Graham and. The Rockefeller family. I think about that during, the Great Depression, the 20s, the turn of the century, where the church, of the time became this mouthpiece for the ruling class. Yeah.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Yeah. Yeah. And the, the like ordained, nature of the ruling class. I think that those are both examples of how spirituality or what our ancestors knew of a spirituality. I don't even know that you can necessarily call the Catholic church at that time, very spiritual because it wasn't very true. It was very power oriented. I guess the, saddest part is that wasn't what Jesus taught at all. and so when the Romans colonized Christianity, they really saw it as a power play. They really saw it as a way to take power back. that this super influential movement that was happening and then there was their own religious structure prior to that was based on Planets that was based on the solar system. It was based on these influences and Saturn being the ultimate ruler of You know that system that they had prior And so they carried this, archetype of scarcity and condemnation and a lot of, very harsh, rules that they had from their Saturnian temples into what we now know of as the Catholic Church. And a lot of the festivals that they celebrated, they basically renamed, right? even Christmas was a rebranding of, Saturnalia. Wow. There were, there was no, There was no recognition of, the root of some of these practices. And when we see, how Rome was really trying to hoard power and hoard resources, They really did become their own like king makers, right? Because they were the ones who came in and, put the crown on the king's head. it was, the archbishops and these dignitaries that were designated from Rome. and how much power you were allowed to amass, you had to get permission from Rome. and it was all dictated by how much power you gave to them by how much money you gave to them. had nothing to do with any kind of morality or, spiritual alignment. And not to say that everyone in the system participated that way. But the people who had power all participated that way. and that just deepened this experience of scarcity that the population was having, made them so much easier to control. And, The types of torture and death that anyone who believed in their own sovereignty was put to was intended to scare people was intended. And that was the

Courtney Napier:

result, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, to make them captive to make them captive to this, new way. And so this is definitely the, faith, the Christianity that was foisted upon these. Indigenous peoples from Africa, from what is now Latin America, what is now the United States, right? They went through the same process. Where? I'm sorry. In Europe. Oh, of course. Yes. Europe definitely being first. And then I was thinking like, fast forward into the transatlantic slave trade. Fast forward. even Christopher Columbus, all of that, this is what they, this is the Christian. This is a Christianity quote unquote, that was brought to the new world. This is what I was taught in the churches that I attended. Was taught to celebrate that the gospel was being brought to these places. This is, and anyone who knows what the gospel means, like what that word is supposed to mean, it very much is not that. And so I want to fast forward a little bit to the 20th century and the 1960s when liberation theology is becoming a like kind of solidified theology, as opposed to it was always brewing, like the Black church always had liberation roots. that needs to be said, but when this became like a true school of thought, like a true Like a solidified study. Yeah. was in the 1960s, in Latin America and also in, the United States. And, that was what I felt like coming away with the goal was to reclaim. The gospel for the people,

Andrea Ward Berg:

Reclaim the spiritual roots, right? Reclaim the truth of the spiritual roots, not the distortion that had been proliferated for so long.

Courtney Napier:

Exactly. Exactly. Oh,

Andrea Ward Berg:

and even when you look at MLK and his writings and the thing, the things that he knew to be possible. What was so subversive about him was how grounded in theology his ideas

Courtney Napier:

were. Yes. 100%. Yeah. He was a scholar. I feel like we don't spend enough time talking about that. And I would say that about Malcolm X too. These are individuals who are brave and revolutionary and all these things, Angela Davis, include her, but they were also highly intelligent, very, well read, very well studied over a broad array of, studies and, Books and philosophies from different generations, different parts of the world, modalities, these were not I just feel like part of what has been lost besides the radical nature is just the their intellect has been neglected so deeply by the way that we've whitewashed their stories.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Is so young, like they were so young. And I think that's the piece that, is easy to, it's easy to, distance ourselves from, but this was recent. This was recent history, this is not Yes. Ancient history like Yes. and Malcolm X was in his twenties. Like he would definitely still be alive and well and teaching today if his life had not been cut. Schwart. Yeah. I think

Courtney Napier:

he was, yeah. He was like early thirties, twenties, Fred Hampton was 21, I believe, when he was. assassinated. Martin Luther King was in his mid 30s.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Mid 30s.

Courtney Napier:

yeah. He was a baby. We had found this really great quote to, to really define what liberation is. It's It's like a great summation around the definition of liberation. What does it mean? And I wanted to go ahead and read that now. So this is from a book called, leadership for liberation of a leadership framework and guide for student affair professionals out of, USC. And, Okay. Jordan Harper and Adriana Kazar, the writers, and they also feature a couple other writers are near and dear to our hearts, including bell hooks. But I wanted to read this now for you all. So bell hooks defined individual liberation as a historical moment when one begins to think critically about the self and identity in relation to one's political circumstance. Collective liberation recognizes that all of our struggles are intimately connected and that the work of liberating the oppressed and the oppressor falls on everyone. Friere, Paolo Friere for those of you who don't know who is another incredible writer, and The thing about Friere is that he, he was a huge inspiration for the entire liberation studies and liberation theology, psychology movement. So very important writer as well, but Friere reminds us that the oppressor is a victim in the cycle of oppression and is not either. In the act of dominating One is also stripped of their humanity. And so all of us remain in a cycle where we are not fully free or human. hooks also writes, bell hooks also writes, Until we are all able to accept the interlocking, interdependent, Nature of systems of domination and recognize a specific ways each system is maintained. We will continue to act in ways that undermine our individual quest for freedom and collective liberation struggle. It is a responsibility of all to participate in the unlearning needed to achieve systemic change. How does that hit you, Andrea, like when we, read When I showed you this for the first time and I'm reading it again now, this, amazing quote by Jordan Harper and Adriana Kazar and the array of writers that they feature in it.

Andrea Ward Berg:

I think that it really captures the, it captures the essence. The essence of liberation as I have come to, to know it and to work for it, it is so deeply rooted in dehumanization and not just dehumanization of an oppressed people because in order to dehumanize them, you have to dehumanize yourself first. And so when we look at, so many of the Ailments and illnesses and, challenges that the white community has comes directly from being an oppressor When you look at the many, the plethora of challenges that people are dealing with on a day to day basis, the root of them is the same as. The challenges that the Black community is facing and I love that they have woven that into their introduction to liberation into what liberation leadership looks like because, so many people of European descent. are in liberation from a saviorism perspective. And, saviorism is really just another tool of the same oppressive system, right? it is a tool to release that conscious knowing of harm without actually getting to the root of the conscious knowing of harm, which is the dehumanization. When we can participate in liberation as a group that also needs liberation, then all of a sudden things start to really shift. And I think that's the reason why Human Design has been so powerful for me in my liberation journey because, it sheds light on these patterns and the conditioning and the, seemingly good ideas that are actually keeping oppression in

Courtney Napier:

place. Yes. Yes. It's the interference, it's, the interference with another's trajectory under this misguided concept that Only one of you can make it to the finish line right

Andrea Ward Berg:

at the basis there's lack mentality at the basis. There is this fundamental scarcity that you're not going to survive. Yeah,

Courtney Napier:

you said one of you is not going to quote you. I'm about to quote you right now. The biggest threat you talk about strategy and authority. So we're bringing Human Design into this. Yeah. And you said the biggest threat to strategy and authority is that seven centered survival fear. It's yeah, those closest to their communities oppressive forces are most harmed by this fear and they're frozen in it. I like, I feel like I needed to quote you in that moment because you were going there and I wanted to make sure, I wanted to make sure the target was clear. I'm like, this is where we're going, Andrea. You are right there. Yes.

Andrea Ward Berg:

when people come to Human Design, we're all coming to try to live out our destiny. We're all coming to try to live out our best life. that's the point of being alive, right? And what that looks like now versus how that looked pre 1781, getting into just like some cosmology and the world really changed in 1781 and that's when Projectors Started to exist and that is when we shifted from being seven centered, which is, the, what the centers look like in the seven chakras, to being nine centered, which is what our centers look like now. And the goal of being alive right now is communion and expression. The goal of being alive back then was survival and enlightenment. And so when we have these practices that have been around for, that predate that shift, we have to be really aware that the threads of survival are still woven into everything that was created pre 1781. Yep. And when we look at Human Design, which was created in the eighties, it is really purely based on communion and expression. And so strategy and authority is really the mechanism that we have to live out that expression that's going to bump us up against all the conditioning that is keeping us from being in our fullest self. and so those structures that keep us in survival mode, capitalism, white supremacy, patriarchy, they are naturally going to interfere with your strategy and authority,

Courtney Napier:

right? Yes. Yes.

Andrea Ward Berg:

And we were even talking about before, before you got on, right? Of knowing that you had this weekend that You should not, I'm

Courtney Napier:

tired, Andrea. I'm tired of these, I'm tired of it, but no, go on. No, it's

Andrea Ward Berg:

true learning, learning and relearning this lesson of the body knows. The answers are in your body, the body knows, but can the mind surrender to what the body knows and trust that you will be safe? Trust that you will stay alive. Yes. Listen to the body.

Courtney Napier:

With the knowledge that this system is built on you not listening to the body. So it's, And that, so this is, I feel like this is, this is where all these modalities meet for me, is that we still live in a world where the seven centered way that survival and enlightenment is still the institutionalized way that we're being pushed forward in the West, it's institutionalized inside of capitalism, it's baked in the cake of capitalism is baked in the cake of patriarchy is baked in the cake of all these things, which, which branch out into racism and misogyny and, anti child behavior, anti family, behaviors, all of these things, anti care, anti environmental care, and care of the earth. All of these things, right? this is the society that was developed out of that seven centered way, right? And it is still hegemonic. It is still, it's still rules the top. Knowing this, and this is what's so powerful to me about liberation theology and Human Design and what they can do together is that it acknowledges the fucked up system. Yep. And it says to us. That it is real and yes, there are going to be consequences. Yes, there are going to be all these things, but for you to live your destiny out, you have to resist the seven centered way to embody this nine centered way to embody, to live embodied instead of your own fear script, like whatever seven centered way is baked into your own mind under the influence of the larger societal way. So our minds, like everything we've learned about life is, has been learned inside of the seven centered reality, the seven center society. And Our minds have created all types of ways of responding to different situations that keep us safe inside of the seven center society. so called, there's no way because it's built against our safety and our thriving, but that, our minds are like, how can I like Just stay out of the way. how can I just not be bad? How can I just get by? How can I just squeeze by in this life? And, that's the type of life that our mind is set up for us to live. Human Design shows us, liberation theology shows us that we are not built to live that life of squeezing by. That we are supposed to live a life of thriving and that we have A more developed, a, more, truthful script in our bodies that It was and it was much harder for the seven-centered way to influence that script and it wasn't to influence the script of here, right? And that in order to live by that script that's in our spirits and in our bodies, we have to it's like these micro resisting behaviors that we have to develop. like listening to the body and doing what the body says instead of what our mind tells us to do in these little ways. if I would have done what my body told me to do yesterday, it wouldn't have been pretty. It would have fucked up a lot of plans. You know what I mean? It would have been a bit of a mess. But I would have, I would have avoided some much larger issues that I couldn't see, that I couldn't cognize. Yeah. Because that's not the point, right? my body's you don't need to know what the threat is. It's not about assessing the threat. That's not how you get through life. It's not about risk avoidance. That's not risk assessment. That's not how we are meant to live in this new evolved way. We can actually live by our bodies and that puts us in harmony with this. Older, deeper, more developed script of, living, this thriving.

Andrea Ward Berg:

Yeah. Yeah. And really it's access to innate wisdom that has been around since the beginning of time, Yes. but that is the exact same wisdom that has been demonized and, diminished since, at least since the last 2000 years, but. Yes, certainly longer because they learned it from somewhere too, right? Like it's true. They were not that creative to come up with it all on their own. They were not. yeah, I think that the enhancement or the, the permission that Human Design gives us within liberation is it's really the human nature. The opportunity to see that everything has a role. homogenizing in any form is going to harm, even if you're homogenizing to peace, it's going to harm. And that is a really tough pill to swallow. That is, yes. So recog recognizing that everything has a role, and that doesn't mean we have to like it. It doesn't mean that we have to think that it's appropriate or, something to support, but and also recognizing that there is a conscious choice and there is a role being played out that on some level needs to be played out because it's being played out for no other reason. and so if we can work to get to that. Understanding, then we're no longer pushing up against that role. We're saying, okay, you're choosing this role and our destiny is not changing as a result of this. And so with you making this choice to harm, it's making us stronger. It's giving us fuel, it's allowing us to be clearer, so that we're going to have more trajectory on our path, right? Because that's the only option. That's really

Courtney Napier:

important. That's so important. Yeah. Say more. That feels really, feels very important right now. So I feel so encouraged. So I'm like, I want to hear more. I love this. Yeah. Thanks.

Andrea Ward Berg:

I think that, when, you look at the tool of the tools that have been used to oppress, many of them have been tools to homogenize. Okay. and so a lot of the only thing that we know is homogenization. So when we look at, for example, our politics, And how divisive things are right now. I'm a huge fan of Sharon McMahon and she says. Things have always been divisive in this country, like there has never been a moment where things were peaceful, and so if we can stop trying to convince other people to be like us, which is really just more homogenization, okay? Yes. But we can look at, okay, what you're choosing creates harm, right? What you're choosing harms children who identify from a different sex than what they were born with. What you're choosing harms children who were born with darker skin than yours. What you're choosing harms the people. Who can't afford to live in the environmentally clean part of town. And so they're getting all of the environmental toxins, right? Yeah. Can be really clear about what's happening, but, and also recognize that harm that is harming those children is also harming the people who are choosing it. Absolutely. And so it's really just a matter of time before they wake up to their own harm. We just have to allow them to have their process, right? this is part of their liberation process is waking up to the harm that they're causing themselves, let alone everyone else. And so that role provides us with extreme clarity. If we didn't have people who were coming against us so hard. We wouldn't feel so clear and so compelled to fight for it. We wouldn't need to fight for it. It would still be, we would still be asleep to it. And that's what I mean by there being these roles within liberation that are not necessarily, agreeable. They're not necessarily things that I would like for people to be doing. My neighbors, my family members, people that are close to me. Making choices that I very fundamentally disagree with. but when I can reframe it into there is a role here, and not try to homogenize them, then there's potential for them to be on their liberation journey. Because if I'm just trying to fight homogenization with more homogenization, I'm drinking the same

Courtney Napier:

poison. I love that. Yes. It's so true. It's so true. There's this piece, intersectionality, which I think is very important. And I feel like it put the name or label to what you're saying. Yeah. And something that I would teach in my spaces. And I think it differentiated me possibly from some other, teachers out there that I haven't mentioned, but everybody's work is important. Everybody's doing their role. But something that was very important to me to express was the reality of intersectionality and the reality that we all have multiple identities. And that it was a way to illustrate exactly what you're saying about, when you dehumanize someone else, you're dehumanizing yourself. Yeah. Because typically, everyone holds multiple identities. And we have, we live in a structure in the United States where there's really one supreme identity. Yeah. That no one actually holds. That's the reality of it. That's the gag, is that no one holds the singular identity. And so we're, we're all taught to claw our way. Into being more and more like more and more aligned D and deeper relationship and identity. That's not real. That doesn't actually exist in our society. And it's completely dehumanizing because, what we're being called to do is shed cut off parts of ourselves in order to fit into this box. So once you get there, you realize there's nothing there. And so you've just maimed yourself. For nothing and that's what I see when I see people in the news, I've seen some really tragic stories of those who appear on the outside to be the embodiment of that chosen identity, harming themselves, unaliving themselves, doing You know, horrible things to themselves because it was revealed that they actually weren't who they said they were. They aren't, they, aren't, a part of that invisible elite class of people either because there's no such thing. It's truly, there's no such thing. And so to have a modality like Human Design and to have a, Philosophy, a study like liberation theology and psychology to, to tell us that, to just tell us that out the gate. And then scholars Kimberly Crenshaw and others to say, no friends, we are multitudes. Yeah. We are multitudes and therefore we are, the multitudinous reality. My friend, Omishaday Bernie Scott calls it a multiverse. we have to build a multiverse we have. And because that we are a multiverse, yeah, that's liberation to me. It's like we make room for people to walk out their destiny, their journey, like you were saying, because that's what I want. Yeah. Yeah. and now my, journey is not pitted against another now. It's not in order to have the walk that I want to have, someone else can't. It's In order for me to have the walk that I want to have, everyone has to have the walk that they have. Yes. That's the only way. so yeah, so powerful. Yes.

Andrea Ward Berg:

And that's why we're here. That's why we're here. Being committed to this work and being committed to the journey, despite the cost, despite the challenges that it brings, because it brings so much joy and freedom, there's nothing like being yourself. It's so true.

Courtney Napier:

And to witness other people being themselves. Absolutely.

Andrea Ward Berg:

And, the irony is that you can't have true communion without authentic expression. That's it. And If we're not aiming for that, then we're aiming for a sad existence.

Courtney Napier:

Yeah, absolutely. Oh, this was good. This was juicy. So good. And we'd love to hear your thoughts. We'd love to hear your ideas. What would you like to hear more of? What questions arise? We're still early in all of this and we might be introducing a lot of ideas and, things and concepts that you've never heard of before. So we want to know. We want to know what you have questions about, what you want to hear more about so we can, provide that. cause we're game. We're game for all of it. We're here for it. Yay! Thank you so much for tuning into HD and Liberation podcast. We hope you've gained valuable insights into human design and its role in building a life of peace, success, satisfaction, and wonder. If you've enjoyed this episode, please show your support by liking, following, and sharing our podcast. on YouTube, or your favorite podcast platform. Your engagement helps us reach more people who can benefit from this wisdom. For exclusive content and to join our thriving community, consider becoming a Patreon member. Your support allows us to continue exploring the depths of human design and its potential for life and community transformation. Stay tuned for more fun, thoughtful, and impacting discussions. Together, we're unlocking the path to a more liberated and authentic life. Thank you for being a part of HD and Liberation Podcast.

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Andrea Ward Berg

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Courtney Napier

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